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Old 07-21-2011, 03:02 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I know this is an Upper Deck post, and eff them for their ridiculous distribution policy but based on the above definition, shouldn't Topps be getting sued right now for cornering the market on licensed baseball cards?

Guess what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander...
Wouldn't that be MLB's fault for only giving them the license?
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:03 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Wouldn't they also violate this

SEC 13 part D
(d) Payment for services or facilities for processing or sale
It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce to pay or contact for the payment of anything of value to or for the benefit of a customer of such person in the course of such commerce as compensation or in consideration for any services or facilities furnished by or through such customer in connection with the processing, handling, sale, or offering for sale of any products or commodities manufactured, sold, or offered for sale by such person, unless such payment or consideration is available on proportionally equal terms to all other customers competing in the distribution of such products or commodities.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:06 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Wouldn't they also violate this

SEC 13 part D
(d) Payment for services or facilities for processing or sale
It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce to pay or contact for the payment of anything of value to or for the benefit of a customer of such person in the course of such commerce as compensation or in consideration for any services or facilities furnished by or through such customer in connection with the processing, handling, sale, or offering for sale of any products or commodities manufactured, sold, or offered for sale by such person, unless such payment or consideration is available on proportionally equal terms to all other customers competing in the distribution of such products or commodities.
That sounds more like it makes discriminatory pricing illegal. I'll charge you more since your Hawaiian than I would anyone else.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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As a former card shop owner, I like this policy, it will help the hobby by making card collecting an actual personal interaction like it used to be rather than just ordering cards online and selling them online without ever seeing your customers. Upper Deck has tried little things like this in the past in 2003 by trying (and failing) in making Upper Deck Finite Basketball, Football, and Baseball Hobby Shop only products. Unfortunately, aside from the basketball, the products sucked.

So am I understanding that Blowout cannot buy directly from Upper Deck anymore, and if it gets boxes/cases from other sources second hand, Blowout cannot sell those cases unless the product has been out 90 days?

Am I also understanding that NOBODY AT ALL can sell Upper Deck sealed products on ebay until 90 days after the product release?

If those are true statements, then I think it will increase the demand and prices for UD products, as you will have to go to your LCS for the first three months of release and in that time with product drying up and probably less of the high dollar singles hitting ebay, when those products are sold to the public by ebay or websites, then the price of the product will probably be much higher than it would have been upon immediate release.

I find it funny to those of you who are bashing Upper Deck on this new policy, when you hypocrites are the exact same people who were blaming the card companies for being too greedy in the late 80's and early 90's by overproducing cards and selling hobby cases direct to anyone that had a business license even if it was out of their garage. Upper Deck is now trying to correct these issues from the past and now you guys are saying they're being too greedy for doing the opposite.

Kudos Upper Deck. Hopefully this is a small step in getting the hobby back to going to your LCS or a weekend Card Show and actually meeting other collectors and having fun shooting the breeze.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:10 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasonadkins View Post
As a former card shop owner, I like this policy, it will help the hobby by making card collecting an actual personal interaction like it used to be rather than just ordering cards online and selling them online without ever seeing your customers. Upper Deck has tried little things like this in the past in 2003 by trying (and failing) in making Upper Deck Finite Basketball, Football, and Baseball Hobby Shop only products. Unfortunately, aside from the basketball, the products sucked.

So am I understanding that Blowout cannot buy directly from Upper Deck anymore, and if it gets boxes/cases from other sources second hand, Blowout cannot sell those cases unless the product has been out 90 days?

Am I also understanding that NOBODY AT ALL can sell Upper Deck sealed products on ebay until 90 days after the product release?

If those are true statements, then I think it will increase the demand and prices for UD products, as you will have to go to your LCS for the first three months of release and in that time with product drying up and probably less of the high dollar singles hitting ebay, when those products are sold to the public by ebay or websites, then the price of the product will probably be much higher than it would have been upon immediate release.

I find it funny to those of you who are bashing Upper Deck on this new policy, when you hypocrites are the exact same people who were blaming the card companies for being too greedy in the late 80's and early 90's by overproducing cards and selling hobby cases direct to anyone that had a business license even if it was out of their garage. Upper Deck is now trying to correct these issues from the past and now you guys are saying they're being too greedy for doing the opposite.

Kudos Upper Deck. Hopefully this is a small step in getting the hobby back to going to your LCS or a weekend Card Show and actually meeting other collectors and having fun shooting the breeze.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Seems to me that all of these new distribution rules and this case come down to one thing...hobby shops vs. the internet. In the long term I think its safe to say the internet will be around longer. The companies are still selling out of products and making their money so who really cares how their products get sold on the other markets. Ill buy from BO and my distributor and others will still pay retail at their LCS. I feel sorry for my son who was just born because these companies are really missing the big picture of what the hobby WAS about...kids. He'll never be able to buy $3 packs of good cards like I did if panini and UD get their way. Let people buy online and get deals. What the f%$# is wrong with that?
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:13 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I doubt this would ever make it to the supreme court.
I never said it would. What I said is that BO is facing an uphill battle given a couple of recent US Supreme Court decisions. Lower courts are bound by US Supreme Court precedents so whatever court(s) hear this case will be bound by those previous US Supreme Court decisions, even if the court(s) don't agree with those US Supreme Court decisions.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:14 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Upper Deck is not a monopoly:

A monopoly is an industry that produces a good or service for which no close substitute exists. Panini and Topps are a substitute.

If there are close substitutes for a good or service, that means there is competition in the market.
Competition in the market means the market cannot be a monopoly by definition.

A business has the right to say who can sell their product. If I open a clothing store and contact Adidas, Nike, Gucci, etc, they do not have to allow me to sell the product. A company can state that you are just a retailer of their product and not a distributor in their agreement.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Am I also understanding that NOBODY AT ALL can sell Upper Deck sealed products on ebay until 90 days after the product release?
Only Authorized Online Retailers can sell UD Products on the internet, including ebay.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:20 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Upper Deck is not a monopoly:

A monopoly is an industry that produces a good or service for which no close substitute exists. Panini and Topps are a substitute.

If there are close substitutes for a good or service, that means there is competition in the market.
Competition in the market means the market cannot be a monopoly by definition.

A business has the right to say who can sell their product. If I open a clothing store and contact Adidas, Nike, Gucci, etc, they do not have to allow me to sell the product. A company can state that you are just a retailer of their product and not a distributor in their agreement.
Neither Topps or Panini can make NCAA products. Wouldnt that mean that there is no direct competition for NCAA products?

Please forgive me if I am way off base, Just trying to figure this out.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:20 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasonadkins View Post
As a former card shop owner, I like this policy, it will help the hobby by making card collecting an actual personal interaction like it used to be rather than just ordering cards online and selling them online without ever seeing your customers. Upper Deck has tried little things like this in the past in 2003 by trying (and failing) in making Upper Deck Finite Basketball, Football, and Baseball Hobby Shop only products. Unfortunately, aside from the basketball, the products sucked.

So am I understanding that Blowout cannot buy directly from Upper Deck anymore, and if it gets boxes/cases from other sources second hand, Blowout cannot sell those cases unless the product has been out 90 days?

Am I also understanding that NOBODY AT ALL can sell Upper Deck sealed products on ebay until 90 days after the product release?

If those are true statements, then I think it will increase the demand and prices for UD products, as you will have to go to your LCS for the first three months of release and in that time with product drying up and probably less of the high dollar singles hitting ebay, when those products are sold to the public by ebay or websites, then the price of the product will probably be much higher than it would have been upon immediate release.

I find it funny to those of you who are bashing Upper Deck on this new policy, when you hypocrites are the exact same people who were blaming the card companies for being too greedy in the late 80's and early 90's by overproducing cards and selling hobby cases direct to anyone that had a business license even if it was out of their garage. Upper Deck is now trying to correct these issues from the past and now you guys are saying they're being too greedy for doing the opposite.

Kudos Upper Deck. Hopefully this is a small step in getting the hobby back to going to your LCS or a weekend Card Show and actually meeting other collectors and having fun shooting the breeze.
All while unduly punishing those without direct access to an LCS. Or punishing those that due have access but are now overcharged for products that can be had at a better price online. I'm all about supporting the LCS and distribute my spending around 60-40 in favor of the LCS. But there are products most notably high end where I'm not going to pay the inflated price of $500 per box when I can get it for around $400 online.

If you want to help the LCS give me an incentive to going there over buying online. In store promotions, hobby store only giveaways and such. Don't punish me and force me to go, make me want to.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:24 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Neither Topps or Panini can make NCAA products. Wouldnt that mean that there is no direct competition for NCAA products?

Please forgive me if I am way off base, Just trying to figure this out.
That is true. But Panini and UD can not make MLB products. A monopoly is meant for an entire industry, such as the sports card industry as a whole.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:27 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If the distribution policy stands, it'll be interesting to see what the market for UD products looks like a year from now.

If products don't sell as well, or if collectors don't flock to brick and mortar stores to buy them, I bet this policy will go away or be adjusted dramatically. I don't think that Upper Deck is in this for any reason other than making sure they keep making money.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:29 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I wouldn't be surprised if they cut it back from 90 days to 30 days. Most products are dead after 30 days anyway. And if UD makes a bad product that a LCS cant sell, they need a way to get rid of the product and recoup their money before 90 days has passed.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:30 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasonadkins View Post
As a former card shop owner, I like this policy, it will help the hobby by making card collecting an actual personal interaction like it used to be rather than just ordering cards online and selling them online without ever seeing your customers. Upper Deck has tried little things like this in the past in 2003 by trying (and failing) in making Upper Deck Finite Basketball, Football, and Baseball Hobby Shop only products. Unfortunately, aside from the basketball, the products sucked.

So am I understanding that Blowout cannot buy directly from Upper Deck anymore, and if it gets boxes/cases from other sources second hand, Blowout cannot sell those cases unless the product has been out 90 days?

Am I also understanding that NOBODY AT ALL can sell Upper Deck sealed products on ebay until 90 days after the product release?

If those are true statements, then I think it will increase the demand and prices for UD products, as you will have to go to your LCS for the first three months of release and in that time with product drying up and probably less of the high dollar singles hitting ebay, when those products are sold to the public by ebay or websites, then the price of the product will probably be much higher than it would have been upon immediate release.

I find it funny to those of you who are bashing Upper Deck on this new policy, when you hypocrites are the exact same people who were blaming the card companies for being too greedy in the late 80's and early 90's by overproducing cards and selling hobby cases direct to anyone that had a business license even if it was out of their garage. Upper Deck is now trying to correct these issues from the past and now you guys are saying they're being too greedy for doing the opposite.

Kudos Upper Deck. Hopefully this is a small step in getting the hobby back to going to your LCS or a weekend Card Show and actually meeting other collectors and having fun shooting the breeze.
If they continue to put out crap products, how they distribute them does not really matter. Ultimately they have significantly bigger issues they need to address, until they do the demand for Upper Deck will be what it is and the LCS will be stuck holding these products. The Hobby needs to move forward not backwards.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:32 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Only Authorized Online Retailers can sell UD Products on the internet, including ebay.

So if I buy a box at my LCS and try to sell it on eBay they will shut me down? How is that possible if I legally took possession of something I paid for. People speculate on boxes all the time and flip them in the 1st 90 days
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:33 PM   #43 (permalink)
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As a card shop owner... it helps me..

But panini and upper deck new policies i think hurt the hobby on a whole..

Not every card shop can afford to have full time accounts with all the companies...

it is a joke...

they should all worry about making better products than worrying about this...

Panini basketball is straight garbage and so is hockey....

Upper deck finally did a soild product in goodwin... but it has been rough there also...

good luck blowout
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:35 PM   #44 (permalink)
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All while unduly punishing those without direct access to an LCS. Or punishing those that due have access but are now overcharged for products that can be had at a better price online. I'm all about supporting the LCS and distribute my spending around 60-40 in favor of the LCS. But there are products most notably high end where I'm not going to pay the inflated price of $500 per box when I can get it for around $400 online.

If you want to help the LCS give me an incentive to going there over buying online. In store promotions, hobby store only giveaways and such. Don't punish me and force me to go, make me want to.
Yes, but how many products in any line of retailing are meant to be sold online for a 10% profit in bulk with those sellers simply not paying taxes by cheating the IRS? In the Card Show Era those wholesalers that were all trying to undercut each other were definitely not paying taxes, and when Card Shop owners would try to report them the IRS simply said that they didn't have the means to audit and track these guys' sales. Upper Deck is trying to get Card shops should just charge a 40-50% markup on factory direct prices on standard products out of the gate rather than watching online sellers charge 10-15% markup and undercut each other.

And how many people on this message board were ranting worse than Dennis Miller when they didn't get their presell orders filled on 2011 Bowman, a type of thing that makes collectors want to leave the hobby for good? Upper Deck is trying to put and end to scenarios like that so that the hobby lasts long term, since I've known many friends to leave the hobby over incidents by being ripped off over ebey whether it was buying presell cases, badly damaged singles, not receiving the singles they bought, or being ripped off by buyers from Taiwan with a paypal chargeback. If people have to go to card shops or card shows again, stuff like this doesn't happen and you actually make friends in your area with people with similar interests.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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If people have to go to card shops or card shows again, stuff like this doesn't happen and you actually make friends in your area with people with similar interests.

You're missing the point that a majority of collectors are trying to make.
Buyers would LOVE to go to a card shop or a card show, a LOT of them can't because they don't exist where they live.
I would be at a card show every weekend if there was one within 250 miles of me...ever.
According to your stats there, you live in Vegas, just like I do. Tell me, when was the last card show here in town? Besides the once a year mall show, with the whopping 30 tables, card shows are non-existent here.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:03 PM   #46 (permalink)
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So if I buy a box at my LCS and try to sell it on eBay they will shut me down? How is that possible if I legally took possession of something I paid for. People speculate on boxes all the time and flip them in the 1st 90 days
I'm a little murky on the subject, but they said these polices were put in place in April. I believe 10-11 UD SP Legendary Cuts was released after April and people were selling singles on Ebay the day it was released with no reprecussions. Not sure, maybe this is an example of BO's alleged selective enforcement of rules..
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:03 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Definition of a monopoly



Part 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act



I don't see how UD can win
Blowout is a middle man, they are setting the prices from the distributor, they are simply attempting to have their selective service available to anyone instead of preferred distributors.

I liken it to this model:

You want to buy a new Chevrolet automobile. Chevrolet creates the automobile and then has a selective group of distributors at which you can buy that automobile. Chevrolet enters into agreements with them, typically asking them not to sell one of their competitor products and be exclusive to their brand. That dealership can choose to dilute the market by selling off inventory to other dealerships, but that is at their choice.

If you want to buy that Chevrolet, you need to go to one of those dealerships to buy it.

It's nothing new.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:07 PM   #48 (permalink)
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If people have to go to card shops or card shows again, stuff like this doesn't happen and you actually make friends in your area with people with similar interests.

You're missing the point that a majority of collectors are trying to make.
Buyers would LOVE to go to a card shop or a card show, a LOT of them can't because they don't exist where they live.
I would be at a card show every weekend if there was one within 250 miles of me...ever.
According to your stats there, you live in Vegas, just like I do. Tell me, when was the last card show here in town? Besides the once a year mall show, with the whopping 30 tables, card shows are non-existent here.
Well that's the point, Upper Deck is trying to bring that interaction back. I know both Ultimate Sports Cards and Legacy Sports Cards are in business, and a major reason I sold off Baseball Card Heaven was because I was watching my customers slowly drift to online only buying. If all three manufacturers went to this type of policy, I would definitely be tempted to open up a shop again, it was the best job I've ever had in my life, I still have friends that were customers of mine even though I sold the shop six years ago, and guys loved my shop because I never put pressure on them to buy, they would just hang out like it was a Barber Shop and pull up a chair for a few hours to get away from their wife or there job for a little while.

There definitely would be more card shops and more card shows if people had to go there to get their cards, even if it just means unopened product and the singles trade stayed the same.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Congratulations BO and good luck

This is another reason why I stopped buying UD years ago; they have no idea what they're doing
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:11 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Blowout is a middle man, they are setting the prices from the distributor, they are simply attempting to have their selective service available to anyone instead of preferred distributors.

I liken it to this model:

You want to buy a new Chevrolet automobile. Chevrolet creates the automobile and then has a selective group of distributors at which you can buy that automobile. Chevrolet enters into agreements with them, typically asking them not to sell one of their competitor products and be exclusive to their brand. That dealership can choose to dilute the market by selling off inventory to other dealerships, but that is at their choice.

If you want to buy that Chevrolet, you need to go to one of those dealerships to buy it.

It's nothing new.
However, chevrolet isn't threatening to shut down people who resell the car within 90 days of it being released nor are they going out of their way to try and punish people for doing it.

I hope that BO wins the lawsuit and puts UD out of business for good personally. Nobody really wants to collect bug cards to begin with. They probably should have been shut down after openly admitting to creating fraudulent non sports cards.
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