My 2 cases of Heroes arrived today and...

[Tim]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

I hate when people don't shop and support locally as well, but at least the sellers know the risk.

I can see both sides for sure, but if searched packs/boxes are sold at anytime, anywhere, I believe there is a moral responsibility to ALWAYS let everyone know what has already been pulled. There will always be that unsuspecting newbie that just doesn't know better otherwise.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with selling searched product as long as there is full disclosure. If there is no full dislosure, then the seller is trying to take advantage of someone that doesn't know better. That seems very clear to me. But of course, I could be wrong.

I totally agree with you Matt. But here is the debate: Does a factory sealed hobby box of Heroes from a case that already had two autos and two sketch cards pulled from it constitute a "searched" box? I say no. Others, I believe, would say yes. And that's fine too. But no way is it "wrong" to sell sealed boxes without saying in the listing "Oh, just so you know, the sketch cards were already pulled from this case."

[anythingu]

Originally Posted by Tim

I totally agree with you Matt. But here is the debate: Does a factory sealed hobby box of Heroes from a case that already had two autos and two sketch cards pulled from it constitute a "searched" box? I say no. Others, I believe, would say yes. And that's fine too. But no way is it "wrong" to sell sealed boxes without saying in the listing "Oh, just so you know, the sketch cards were already pulled from this case."

No, but a factory sealed hobby box of Legendary Cuts from a case that already had the 1 cut auto pulled from it (the year that this product only had 1 cut auto per case) constitutes a "searched" box.

As for the Heroes, you're right, there are no case hits. There are also no concrete set results from any given case. However, there are averages.

So, if there are no guarantees from Heroes, why then would a seller WANT to sell the remaining 4 boxes from their case after pulling 2 autos and 2 sketch cards? If the seller truly believes that all things are random and that there are no guarantees per case, wouldn't the seller WANT to bust the remaining boxes?

You and I both know WHY the seller wants to sell the remaining 4 boxes. If we both know WHY the seller wants to sell the remaining 4 boxes, why isn't it "wrong" for selling these boxes to someone who believes that there exists an equal chance of pulling any said hit if they had purchased this box from a sealed case?

Lawrence

[anythingu]

Originally Posted by Tim

This is going to turn into one of the many debates you have on the BMB, Lawrence, so I will not go there; it's been debated ad nauseum over and over and over again. I will only say there are TWO sides to everything, and I bet buyers who win boxes for half of what their hobby stores are selling them for are not "morally disturbed" over getting something so absurdly cheap that the seller is losing a boatload of money.

So it's okay then for sellers to sell dead boxes because they're going to lose money? It's the sellers responsibility to buy products that they feel will make them money. Isn't that the MO of most of the people on this board? We analyze and analyze products determining whether or not it will be a profitable break?

I don't know many people here that will knowingly go into a case of Legendary Cuts trying to bust it for money. So, if a seller decides to go into a case of Legendary Cuts, pulls the cut auto in the 3rd box, but realizes from the other 2 boxes that those boxes suck, it's okay for them to dump the remaining boxes on other people without disclosing that these are dead boxes?

As for the buyer being "morally disturbed", why should they be? The seller is the one willing to allow the boxes to go for that price. Heck, for the seller, they're making out better selling dead boxes to unsuspecting customers than if they had actually BUSTED the boxes so where does the morality come in place?

If a buyer went to a card shop and found out that their card shop was selling dead boxes, even money says that buyer would stop going to said card shop. They are paying the higher prices for the "belief" that the pull still exists.

As for eBay, who doesn't look for a bargain in terms of pricing? But no one ever goes on eBay looking to be defrauded.

Lastly, I find it disingenuous that you would state that you don't want to "go there" in terms of a debate when you fired the first shot (calling those who believe that this is wrong "sanctimonious"), taking a shot at what I do at the BMB and THEN continuing to make points.

Lawrence

[Tim]

Originally Posted by anythingu

So it's okay then for sellers to sell dead boxes because they're going to lose money? It's the sellers responsibility to buy products that they feel will make them money. Isn't that the MO of most of the people on this board? We analyze and analyze products determining whether or not it will be a profitable break?

I don't know many people here that will knowingly go into a case of Legendary Cuts trying to bust it for money. So, if a seller decides to go into a case of Legendary Cuts, pulls the cut auto in the 3rd box, but realizes from the other 2 boxes that those boxes suck, it's okay for them to dump the remaining boxes on other people without disclosing that these are dead boxes?

As for the buyer being "morally disturbed", why should they be? The seller is the one willing to allow the boxes to go for that price. Heck, for the seller, they're making out better selling dead boxes to unsuspecting customers than if they had actually BUSTED the boxes so where does the morality come in place?

If a buyer went to a card shop and found out that their card shop was selling dead boxes, even money says that buyer would stop going to said card shop. They are paying the higher prices for the "belief" that the pull still exists.

As for eBay, who doesn't look for a bargain in terms of pricing? But no one ever goes on eBay looking to be defrauded.

Lastly, I find it disingenuous that you would state that you don't want to "go there" in terms of a debate when you fired the first shot (calling those who believe that this is wrong "sanctimonious"), taking a shot at what I do at the BMB and THEN continuing to make points.

Lawrence

So if you owned a shop, and you bought a case of Legendary Cuts, and one lucky customer hit the cut in the first box, you are saying that you would post a big sign in front of all the other boxes that says, "PLEASE NOTE: THE CUT HAS BEEN HIT ALREADY FROM THE CASE THAT THESE BOXES CAME FROM"

If you say no, then your arguments are invalid.
If you say yes, you are a better person than me, and if people are honest than most everyone else in the world.

[anythingu]

Originally Posted by Tim

So if you owned a shop, and you bought a case of Legendary Cuts, and one lucky customer hit the cut in the first box, you are saying that you would post a big sign in front of all the other boxes that says, "PLEASE NOTE: THE CUT HAS BEEN HIT ALREADY FROM THE CASE THAT THESE BOXES CAME FROM"

If you say no, then your arguments are invalid.
If you say yes, you are a better person than me, and if people are honest than most everyone else in the world.

This is a straw man's argument.

What we are talking about is the SELLER double dipping or taken advantage of not only GETTING the hit, but then also SELLING the dead boxes.

I have no problems with card shop owners selling the the other 11 boxes to customers if their CUSTOMER pulled the cut auto from the 1st box. As a buyer, I know that there exists the risk that other customers before me could have bought boxes from the case or box (if I'm buying packs) and that they could have been lucky. I also expect the OWNER to continue selling the boxes (with or without said knowledge) because you cannot punish the OWNER for the CUSTOMER'S good luck.

What we are talking about is the OWNER busting the first box, pulling the cut auto and THEN selling the dead boxes to the CUSTOMERS. Thus, it is the OWNER who has BOTH the Cut Auto AND the revenue from the dead boxes. To me, this is dishonest. It is the OWNER'S INTENT that I am looking here.

The first example, the OWNER was honest, played by the rules, CUSTOMER got lucky so why punish the OWNER?

The second example, the OWNER was dishonest, cherry picked the case to get the good card and it is the CUSTOMER that is being punished.

If you can't see the difference in these situations, then you're right, we shouldn't go there.

Lawrence

[Tim]

Originally Posted by anythingu

This is a straw man's argument.

What we are talking about is the SELLER double dipping or taken advantage of not only GETTING the hit, but then also SELLING the dead boxes.

I have no problems with card shop owners selling the the other 11 boxes to customers if their CUSTOMER pulled the cut auto from the 1st box. As a buyer, I know that there exists the risk that other customers before me could have bought boxes from the case or box (if I'm buying packs) and that they could have been lucky. I also expect the OWNER to continue selling the boxes (with or without said knowledge) because you cannot punish the OWNER for the CUSTOMER'S good luck.

What we are talking about is the OWNER busting the first box, pulling the cut auto and THEN selling the dead boxes to the CUSTOMERS. Thus, it is the OWNER who has BOTH the Cut Auto AND the revenue from the dead boxes. To me, this is dishonest. It is the OWNER'S INTENT that I am looking here.

The first example, the OWNER was honest, played by the rules, CUSTOMER got lucky so why punish the OWNER?

The second example, the OWNER was dishonest, cherry picked the case to get the good card and it is the CUSTOMER that is being punished.

If you can't see the difference in these situations, then you're right, we shouldn't go there.

Lawrence

Okay, I agree with you on THIS point. Totally. But back to the Heroes case. A collector, who has to sell some of his hits on ebay to continue collecting, buys a case of Heroes because he enjoys ripping wax but only COLLECTS autograph cards. He, like most of the public, knows that there will be anywhere from 1-3 autos per case. He gets lucky and hits a THIRD auto and has two boxes left. I see nothing wrong with him selling the last two boxes on ebay. This is where we differ as I believe you think he should either open the last two or sell them and say the autos were hit. I say it's his right to do what he wants. This is totally different than the Legendary Cuts example that, perhaps, I was wrong to use as an analogy.

[mwheeler27]

I think this is a good debate. I wanted to let everyone know that I did bust the remaining 6 boxes and here's what I pulled:

3rd box...sketch card of the bald black guy, (sorry I don't know names)

4th box...sketch card of same bald black guy with arm around the neck of the actress from Final Destination

5th box...Isaac Mendez costume

6th box...Matt Parkman costume

7th box...Claire Bennet costume (white)

8th box...Masi Oka AUTO!

Couldn't believe I pulled 3 autos in that one case.

I couldn't resist from opening the 2nd case. My theory was that I think these case prices will continue to go down, so I will pick up another one or two later on to keep sealed. I will post my pulls next.

[mwheeler27]

1st box...Matt Parkman costume

2nd box...Hiro Nakamura costume

3rd box...Isaac Mendez costume (lots of "paint" on this piece of cloth)

4th box...Red, white and blue colored sketch of the political figure guy

5th box...Cute cheerleader sketch

6th box...Claire Bennet costume (red)

7th box...Masi Oka Auto

8th box...Black with blue background sketch of possibly the political figure guy's brother. LOL Sorry again that I don't know their names.

Over all, I think I did okay. I'm happy with the breaks. Can't wait to finish my break of Marvel Masterpieces now. I really like the sketch cards I have pulled so far.

[anythingu]

Originally Posted by Tim

Okay, I agree with you on THIS point. Totally. But back to the Heroes case. A collector, who has to sell some of his hits on ebay to continue collecting, buys a case of Heroes because he enjoys ripping wax but only COLLECTS autograph cards. He, like most of the public, knows that there will be anywhere from 1-3 autos per case. He gets lucky and hits a THIRD auto and has two boxes left. I see nothing wrong with him selling the last two boxes on ebay. This is where we differ as I believe you think he should either open the last two or sell them and say the autos were hit. I say it's his right to do what he wants. This is totally different than the Legendary Cuts example that, perhaps, I was wrong to use as an analogy.

Agreed, this is where you and I differ. Since he pulled the third auto, he is selling the boxes because he knows there is a 95% or so chance that the next two boxes will have zero autos.

His buyer will have almost no chance at pulling an autograph which is the toughest hit in the case (on average), however, the buyer doesn't know this. The seller has taken the chance from him, but is still SELLING the chance.

This is my problem. Sellers are still selling the CHANCE to pull THE "hit" when the chance is virtually non-existant.

Here's an example. You go to a carnival and there's a game where there are 5 boxes. The game is simple. 4 of the boxes are empty. 1 box wins the "prize". You choose a box. It's empty. You figure, oh well, I had a 20% at winning anyways.

How would you feel if you found out later that all 5 boxes were empty?

Lawrence

[anythingu]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

I think this is a good debate. I wanted to let everyone know that I did bust the remaining 6 boxes and here's what I pulled:

3rd box...sketch card of the bald black guy, (sorry I don't know names)

4th box...sketch card of same bald black guy with arm around the neck of the actress from Final Destination

5th box...Isaac Mendez costume

6th box...Matt Parkman costume

7th box...Claire Bennet costume (white)

8th box...Masi Oka AUTO!

Couldn't believe I pulled 3 autos in that one case.

I couldn't resist from opening the 2nd case. My theory was that I think these case prices will continue to go down, so I will pick up another one or two later on to keep sealed. I will post my pulls next.

3rd box...sketch card of the bald black guy, (sorry I don't know names) - D.L. Hawkins

4th box...sketch card of same bald black guy with arm around the neck of the actress from Final Destination - D.L. Hawkins / Niki Sanders

Lawrence