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Old 07-31-2012, 03:18 AM   #126 (permalink)
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You are right "one too many".

We do our very best to authenticate all of our cuts but sometimes even our authenticators make mistakes.

The important thing is how we handle these situations and we have been in contact with the owner of the card and the card is being returned to us for inspection and re-authentication.

If the cut is in fact an error, it will be replaced.

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Old 07-31-2012, 08:54 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John91C View Post
I wouldn't count on it just being 1...if they let this one through...how many more did they let through?
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Originally Posted by baytowntex View Post
one too many?
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good job John91c .
So high and mighty. Infallible, perfect beings who have never erred. Y'all must be the hits at any social gathering.
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Old 07-31-2012, 08:54 AM   #128 (permalink)
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You are right "one too many".

We do our very best to authenticate all of our cuts but sometimes even our authenticators make mistakes.

The important thing is how we handle these situations and we have been in contact with the owner of the card and the card is being returned to us for inspection and re-authentication.

If the cut is in fact an error, it will be replaced.

Brian Price
People are human. We all make mistakes. Some are intentional. This was not. It's how you deal with and handle those mistakes that defines your integrity. Nobody can ask more, (and expect to get it), from a company than what Dr. Price is giving you in this situation.

Well done on all accounts...to those that spotted the possible secretarial auto, and those that are going to remedy the situation.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:33 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Do I get an apology for being called a troll for bringing up this legitimate concerns like these before the release? Who authenticated this cut? Where did it come from?
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:51 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Who authenicated the Paul Hornung auto in your avatar?

I'll expect their full name, social security number, and blood type by...say...Noon EST.

Good grief......


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Do I get an apology for being called a troll for bringing up this legitimate concerns like these before the release? Who authenticated this cut? Where did it come from?
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:54 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Do I get an apology for being called a troll for bringing up this legitimate concerns like these before the release? Who authenticated this cut? Where did it come from?
I know you're not talking to me, but maybe you should ask the people who called you a troll.

As far as who authenticated it or where it came from...did you buy any of this product? If not, why does it matter? If so, 100% of these cut autos are guaranteed to be authentic. If you find one to be non-authentic, contact the company. Pretty simple.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:18 AM   #132 (permalink)
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Who authenicated the Paul Hornung auto in your avatar?

I'll expect their full name, social security number, and blood type by...say...Noon EST.

Good grief......
Funny guy... The Hornung is guaranteed by a contract signed by UD and the player. They may have been witness and or video recorded. As of now there is no need for the autograph to be backed up by an opinion. A contract can be taken to court an opinion can not. Just to let you know I do not trust and cut signature whether its from UD, Topps, Panini or Famous Fabrics. I also do not trust some of the "Game Used" jerseys from licensed products. I just would like to see the cut signatures come with information on why it is authentic and who authenticated it like most autograph memorabilia. Seems like I am asking for too much.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:20 AM   #133 (permalink)
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I know you're not talking to me, but maybe you should ask the people who called you a troll.

As far as who authenticated it or where it came from...did you buy any of this product? If not, why does it matter? If so, 100% of these cut autos are guaranteed to be authentic. If you find one to be non-authentic, contact the company. Pretty simple.
It matters because I was thinking about giving it a shot.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:34 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jackg1980 View Post
The Hornung is guaranteed by a contract signed by UD and the player. They may have been witness and or video recorded.
Did you see this contract?


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Originally Posted by Jackg1980 View Post
They may have been witness and or video recorded.
Then again, they may not.


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As of now there is no need for the autograph to be backed up by an opinion. A contract can be taken to court an opinion can not.
Then why do caught forgers serve jail time? In somebody's opinion, those autographs aren't authentic.


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Just to let you know I do not trust and cut signature whether its from UD, Topps, Panini or Famous Fabrics. I also do not trust some of the "Game Used" jerseys from licensed products.
That's what it all comes down to.


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I just would like to see the cut signatures come with information on why it is authentic and who authenticated it like most autograph memorabilia. Seems like I am asking for too much.
Sounds like you've got a pretty strong opinion on autographs already, I doubt this information will change how you feel. There's nothing wrong with questioning things, I think it's great and the only way to feel comfortable. But unless someone signs something and hands it to you, you'll never be able to rest easy. In my entire collection, the ones I got in-person will always be my favorites. Do I care if you or anyone else thinks it's authentic? Not really.

You have to put a level of trust in every autographed product you buy. Just buy from companies you trust, otherwise you're only going to aggravate yourself arguing with those with varying opinions.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:48 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Going to just pitch in here quickly that I read about 5 pages of the comments section of John's Heston article and noticed how the author and others commented that they had seen Heston PSA authenticated secretarials and many of them checked their own Heston autos to find the same result.

Summary; It was a good article find by John91C and informative. It appears the issue on the Heston really came to light last year, but previously had been undetected by professionals and authenticators alike. So now that it is more publicly known that this variation of Heston exists, adjust and move forward with it.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:12 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Did you see this contract?

UD can provide it if the autographs come into question.

Then why do caught forgers serve jail time? In somebody's opinion, those autographs aren't authentic.

Forgers and authenticators are different.


Sounds like you've got a pretty strong opinion on autographs already, I doubt this information will change how you feel. There's nothing wrong with questioning things, I think it's great and the only way to feel comfortable. But unless someone signs something and hands it to you, you'll never be able to rest easy. In my entire collection, the ones I got in-person will always be my favorites. Do I care if you or anyone else thinks it's authentic? Not really.

You have to put a level of trust in every autographed product you buy. Just buy from companies you trust, otherwise you're only going to aggravate yourself arguing with those with varying opinions.
With autograph memorabilia it will definitely change how I feel. To me trusting an unknown unnamed person's opinion is alot harder then trusting a legally binding contract and possible witness or video proof.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:32 PM   #137 (permalink)
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With autograph memorabilia it will definitely change how I feel.
But in the case of cuts, you certainly can't have a signed contract from the afterlife, so your feelings on that subject will remain unless you have some kind of epiphany. I should have specified cuts.

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To me trusting an unknown unnamed person's opinion is alot harder then trusting a legally binding contract and possible witness or video proof.
Well that's true in any case, I don't think many, if anybody, would argue that. But at some level you're trusting UD (or whoever) that they have a signed legally-binding contract in place somewhere. Where you choose to place your trust is up to you. If you require more facts, support those companies who give you what makes you comfortable spending your money on.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:52 PM   #138 (permalink)
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So high and mighty. Infallible, perfect beings who have never erred. Y'all must be the hits at any social gathering.
I never said it was intentional...all I'm saying is if one slipped through then how many more are there? This product can not be 100% authentic...there will be mistakes.

The real question is will the company stand behind their product...which so far Mr. Price has and I commend him for that.

Companies are fallible as are are we...if you truly believe all the cuts are 100% authentic from any company then you are naive. We "trust" that they are authentic but no one really knows with cuts...

I'm sure Mr. Price bought these autos with PSA/DNA certifications and JSA ones as well since they are the "experts" in the field of autographs. BUT when a problem arises showing there are known "fakes" that PSA/DNA or JSA passed then and only then will the integrity of a company show.

Look at UD and their quad cut blunder...they eventually made it right (I think)...and Mr. Price is taking the right steps to make this right as well. Now comes the question of if his "team" find the cut auto authentic when it certainly a questionable cut auto (secretarial)...would you still want this cut auto?

In the end we're talking about a $100-$150 autograph that someone can buy (authentic) online...it's an easy replacement...but what if it's a 4 figure autograph like Elvis or Bono or any other hard to acquire autograph?

My other concern is what other security measures were taken...did Mr. Price just rely on PSA/DNA and not have another opinion on authenticity? Did he also send all those cut autos to JSA and others who experts in this field to verify the authenticity (doube, triple checked)?

Even with 3rd party opinions...they are not guaranteed. Does that mean Mr. Price will guarantee the cut autos are 100% authentic? What makes his company a on par or even better than PSA/DNA, JSA, etc to guarantee the cut autograph is 100% authentic? He is putting his name/company reputation on this guarantee? What if 10 years down the line the cut autograph was known to be a fake...will he still stand behind that cut autograph being 100% authentic?
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:55 PM   #139 (permalink)
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But in the case of cuts, you certainly can't have a signed contract from the afterlife, so your feelings on that subject will remain unless you have some kind of epiphany. I should have specified cuts.

In the case of cuts, the person/company or other means of authentication should be published whether its on the card or on a website.

Well that's true in any case, I don't think many, if anybody, would argue that. But at some level you're trusting UD (or whoever) that they have a signed legally-binding contract in place somewhere. Where you choose to place your trust is up to you. If you require more facts, support those companies who give you what makes you comfortable spending your money on.
Thank you for not talking to me like I am a troll. At first I was interested in this product but wanted more information before I purchase it. Just like any autograph memorabilia item I would like to feel confident in its authentication. That will include all information or papers to prove it authenticity. I did not feel that is product had that information readily available for review. I choose not to purchased it. People keep asking me why am I not demanding that information from licensed companies. For the most part its because of the research that has been done on autograph memorabilia. The research shows that 50% to 90% of all autograph memorabilia is fake. This includes autographs with COAs. If researched show that 50%-90% of licensed, (contracted) autographs are fake then I would have the same concerns. The level of concern I have with any autograph memorabilia item is 100s of times more then license product autographs because of the research.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:31 PM   #140 (permalink)
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People keep asking me why am I not demanding that information from licensed companies. For the most part its because of the research that has been done on autograph memorabilia. The research shows that 50% to 90% of all autograph memorabilia is fake. This includes autographs with COAs. If researched show that 50%-90% of licensed, (contracted) autographs are fake then I would have the same concerns. The level of concern I have with any autograph memorabilia item is 100s of times more then license product autographs because of the research.
What if that number was 1%? What if it were 99%? That shouldn't matter when the true gauge of authenticity is your gut. No matter what numbers or research show, if you didn't personally see the item being signed, you can never ever ever ever ever be completely sure of its authenticity. You're putting your trust and faith into the company saying it's real, and you have to take that for what it's worth. To some, it's worth a lot. To others, not so much.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:12 PM   #141 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=John91C;3060022]
My other concern is what other security measures were taken...did Mr. Price just rely on PSA/DNA and not have another opinion on authenticity? Did he also send all those cut autos to JSA and others who experts in this field to verify the authenticity (doube, triple checked)?
[QUOTE]

John, not arguing here at all just running off the tangent philosophical, but exactly how much overhead cost do you feel should go into a product? Don't get me wrong three certificates of authenticity in every box would be great but if it adds $50 to the cost of a box then how many potential buyers do you lose? I think if you go off the industry standard, the standard is to rely on a third party authentication be it PSA/DNA or JSA but not multiple third parties.

By the way, very quick acknowledgement to Dr. Price for handling this during what is always the busiest time of the year for companies as they prepare for their biggest convention of the year. As I've said before, if we could only get the other companies to do 20% of what he does, it would be a much better collecting world.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:14 PM   #142 (permalink)
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What if that number was 1%? What if it were 99%? That shouldn't matter when the true gauge of authenticity is your gut. No matter what numbers or research show, if you didn't personally see the item being signed, you can never ever ever ever ever be completely sure of its authenticity. You're putting your trust and faith into the company saying it's real, and you have to take that for what it's worth. To some, it's worth a lot. To others, not so much.
Think of this as a political subject -

For some, 1% is exactly the same as 50% or 90%.

It's obvious by the unchanging nature of these comments, and how long this same discussion has been going back and forth, no answers or solutions will ever do.

That baytown now somehow feels vindicated, that he was absolutely correct and that 'we' were absolutely incorrect is a clear sign of where the intent was weeks ago when these issues first came up. One can imagine him and others trolling the threads, anticipating any hint of trouble so they can grandly enter and proclaim: "I TOLD YOU SO!" (Trumpets blaring!)

Even worse, there is this incredibly judgmental attitude, as if there can never be a mistake made, and that if there is one, even when it's fixed quickly, it's completely unforgivable. One wonders how people can function in life if a single mistake damns a corporation forever. Sony and the hacked PSN. Microsoft and ethics issues. GM and govt. bailouts. Just about every bank on the planet. Every trading card company. Wal-Mart.

This all leads to the grand hypocrisy: Nothing bad can be said about certain companies with horrible records because they are not the intended target. I see this last part as being like Apple trolls. Microsoft or Google can murder a baby and the Apple troll will still say "Yah but remember when Apple did ____!"
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:56 PM   #143 (permalink)
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What if the potential problem was never found? would this be ok with yall?
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:03 PM   #144 (permalink)
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What if that number was 1%? What if it were 99%? That shouldn't matter when the true gauge of authenticity is your gut. No matter what numbers or research show, if you didn't personally see the item being signed, you can never ever ever ever ever be completely sure of its authenticity. You're putting your trust and faith into the company saying it's real, and you have to take that for what it's worth. To some, it's worth a lot. To others, not so much.
For me and most collectors research matters.

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Think of this as a political subject -

For some, 1% is exactly the same as 50% or 90%.

It's obvious by the unchanging nature of these comments, and how long this same discussion has been going back and forth, no answers or solutions will ever do.

That baytown now somehow feels vindicated, that he was absolutely correct and that 'we' were absolutely incorrect is a clear sign of where the intent was weeks ago when these issues first came up. One can imagine him and others trolling the threads, anticipating any hint of trouble so they can grandly enter and proclaim: "I TOLD YOU SO!" (Trumpets blaring!)

Even worse, there is this incredibly judgmental attitude, as if there can never be a mistake made, and that if there is one, even when it's fixed quickly, it's completely unforgivable. One wonders how people can function in life if a single mistake damns a corporation forever. Sony and the hacked PSN. Microsoft and ethics issues. GM and govt. bailouts. Just about every bank on the planet. Every trading card company. Wal-Mart.

This all leads to the grand hypocrisy: Nothing bad can be said about certain companies with horrible records because they are not the intended target. I see this last part as being like Apple trolls. Microsoft or Google can murder a baby and the Apple troll will still say "Yah but remember when Apple did ____!"
1% = 99%? I have not idea what you mean by this.

First of all I am not trolling. So do not call me a troll. I know everyone makes mistakes so do not talk to me like I expect every company not to make a mistake. Where are you getting that from I do not know. All I have been asking is what means of authentication were used to determined authenticity. Where did the cut signatures originate from? Where is that information and why isnt it made available for review? I would ask these question on ANY autograph memorabilia item I am interested in. But for some reason I am suppose to automatically trust FF and if I do not I am suddenly a troll. Would you buy an autograph memorabilia item from me without any documentation?
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:20 PM   #145 (permalink)
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the key here is the problem was found and Dr Price is taking care of it, so if others are found I am sure he would do the same. After all PSA would not even admit to the mistakes they make, thats why they are not trustworthy.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:25 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Where did the cut signatures originate from? Where is that information and why isnt it made available for review? I would ask these question on ANY autograph memorabilia item I am interested in.
Have you seen all the contracts, videos, or representative accounts for every signed item you've purchased? How does Richard McWilliams' pre-printed signature on the back of the Hornung make you feel any better about this auto than anything else?

And I didn't say research didn't matter. I can't explain myself any clearer.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:57 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Have you seen all the contracts, videos, or representative accounts for every signed item you've purchased? How does Richard McWilliams' pre-printed signature on the back of the Hornung make you feel any better about this auto than anything else?

And I didn't say research didn't matter. I can't explain myself any clearer.
I answered all those question multiple times.

Answer this, would you buy an autograph memorabilia item for full price without a COA?
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:58 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Answer this, would you buy an autograph memorabilia item for full price without a COA?
Not without a guarantee. Thank goodness all Famous Fabrics cut autos are guaranteed to be authentic.
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Old 07-31-2012, 04:03 PM   #149 (permalink)
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the key here is the problem was found and Dr Price is taking care of it, so if others are found I am sure he would do the same. After all PSA would not even admit to the mistakes they make, thats why they are not trustworthy.
yah i just read a lot of news about them on the haulsofshame website
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Old 07-31-2012, 04:06 PM   #150 (permalink)
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What if the potential problem was never found?
That doesn't make any sense. And, see the next quote:

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the key here is the problem was found and Dr Price is taking care of it, so if others are found I am sure he would do the same.
Not enough for some.

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1% = 99%? I have not idea what you mean by this.
One autograph in question has led you and/or baytown to question (again) the entire product, Famous Fabrics, and the industry. Therefore, 1% = 100% to some who choose to be overly judgmental, completely ignoring the history of the company.

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First of all I am not trolling. So do not call me a troll.
I purposely excluded you from my last essay and made it clear, I thought, that another user is hanging on to everything you say and expanding things in very trollish ways.
The result is the back and forth bickering that is usually inspired and expounded upon by trolls. (I see myself becoming guilty of that in this thread).

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I know everyone makes mistakes so do not talk to me like I expect every company not to make a mistake. Where are you getting that from I do not know.
Because every time I or someone else has mentioned Upper Deck's criminal past, you come to their defense as to how you trust them implicitly. I can't make it any clearer than this but I'm certain you still won't understand our counter to your preaching on and on about needing something more from FF than you would get from Upper Deck.

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Where did the cut signatures originate from? Where is that information and why isnt it made available for review?
I am not going back through weeks of threads to see if/when/how this question has or has not been answered. But, obviously, even if I did, no answer (or lack thereof) would end this for you. You will NEVER be happy with any reply here or in any thread on the topic if, at the same time, you are satisfied that Upper Deck does things the right way.

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Originally Posted by Jackg1980 View Post
But for some reason I am suppose to automatically trust FF and if I do not I am suddenly a troll.
No one has ordered you to automatically trust FF. People have said THEY trust FF. See the difference?

Why does it bother you so much that other people trust this company and its products? Why, after all these weeks, can't you just let them enjoy the hobby the way they want, and go back to the promises provided to you by Upper Deck? If that works for you, fantastic. No-one is going to check every UD thread for the inevitable horrible customer service experience, bait-and-switch episode, or other rant just to say "I told you so!"

The bit in bold above has been said to you possibly a dozen times in the past few weeks. Yet, at the end of the day, this somehow means to you that we are asking, forcing, coercing, trying to convince you to buy FF products. Amazing.

You've said your bit. Why does it have to be repeated again and again? Why do you expect to attempt the same experiment and get a different result when the previous results have been identical?

Ultimately, it comes down to this: no FF fan or fan of this or other product by ANYONE wants to see every thread about that product or company become a huge argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackg1980 View Post
Would you buy an autograph memorabilia item from me without any documentation?
First, put out a dozen successful products, keep up a reputation of handling problems with class and grace, communicate directly with your customers, and we'll talk in a few years.

^ This is the key paragraph in my essay. Read it again. THIS is why some people swear by FF. This is also why some people's arguments fall flat when they stand by companies that exhibit none of the above qualities.

Last edited by Nicnac; 07-31-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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