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Old 12-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #26 (permalink)
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^ And that's what makes it fun. If you chase what you like, you aren't as concerned about the cost aspect. While it plays a part of it, I can truly state that the one card I picked up for $75 is better quality than options I had in the $200 range. Very pleased, and that's all that matters as you put it so well.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I think Marvel Premier is a big culprit in the sports guys buying into non-sports. The non-sport hobby hasn't had a product like this before, where on the sports side of things it's not uncommon for someone to pay $200 for a box of cards that contains as little as ONE CARD! It was a big gamble on UD's part and it seems that it has been fairly well received. And honestly, based on the pack price, these sketch cards should sell for more than ones found in a $60 box by the same artist based solely on the more limited nature of the set.

It's just like sports, where an autograph of a player from a $50 product might be worth $10, but the same player's auto from a $200 product is now worth $75. I don't think non-sports collectors have that same mentality - they see a Charles Hall as a Charles Hall no matter what. But it's kind of the same reasoning why an AP is worth so much more - aside from coming directly from the artist, it's the more limited nature that makes them more desirable and more expensive. UD just put that into pack form with Premier.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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But supply will push the values down in the "card collecting world" to a degree - it's alot different than the "art world." Anthony Tan and Charles Hall are a great examples of this. There will always be outliers (outstanding pieces by a specific artist) but even the outliers will be slighly lower in price/value than initially.

Seems like some of the newer collectors don't pick up on that trend for awhile (ie still think they're XMA Tan is worth $500) ....so here's a warning if you are looking at long-term investment. The safest "bets" are the artists who hit-and-run like NAR... once the supply saturates the market, values will go down though almost always slowly (3+ sets).

Or you can just keep your collection forever and smile when viewing then no worries... only smiles .

Will be interesting to see values in the long-term (10+ years)!
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:15 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I don't say this to wrap up the thread, but wanted to say that I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation on this thread. Thanks everyone for the great information and opinions shared here.

I honestly wasn't sure how this one would go, so it's exceeded my expectations

And by all means, please continue...
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:21 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Well, that's what continues to drive me nuts about Premier. People are very reluctant to price the art/artists accordingly, using the excuse of having $200 into the cards. That's all fine but, at the end of the day, it's still a joe schmoe sketch of character whoever. As stated, I tend to view this market as a Charles Hall is a Charles Hall no matter what it came from. The mindset that it should hold more value due to coming out of a more expensive product is misguided, assuming he did a relatively equal quantity of cards for this set as compared to a 'cheaper' release set, such as Marvel Bronze Age.

Now, for sportscards, I totally get it. Yes, an on card autograph of a player should have more value from a high end set. But, the way the sportscard market is set up nowadays, the higher end (veteran) autos are only found in the most expensive products anyhow, alleviating the issue of actual versus perceived value... there are almost no options. To apply this to the sketch card market, let's say AJTan, Hall, and the like artists were exclusive to something like Marvel Premier. Well, now you've got something. In which case, I'd be way more interested in acquiring a piece of theirs at upwards of $250, $350 or more. When I know I can wait and get equally desirable work from them from $50/box product, well that's the difference.

I would like to say that I think you will see something like this in the future. These companies know that certain artists pull huge money and will probably try to build something akin to Exquisite in the sketch market. Obviously UD has the huge opportunity to pull this off. That is something I'd buy, if it was along the lines of a top tier artist per box / case.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:26 PM   #31 (permalink)
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To apply this to the sketch card market, let's say AJTan, Hall, and the like artists were exclusive to something like Marvel Premier. Well, now you've got something. In which case, I'd be way more interested in acquiring a piece of theirs at upwards of $250, $350 or more. When I know I can wait and get equally desirable work from them from $50/box product, well that's the difference.

I would like to say that I think you will see something like this in the future. These companies know that certain artists pull huge money and will probably try to build something akin to Exquisite in the sketch market. Obviously UD has the huge opportunity to pull this off. That is something I'd buy, if it was along the lines of a top tier artist per box / case.
That's an interesting idea for sure

One thing I would say about Premier--from my limited experience of looking at other releases, it seems like the "average" sketch in there is of a higher quality than what you see in other products. Other than a few examples that really stand out, I haven't seen many from Premier that make me think "Wow, they really rushed that one" like I do sometimes with other products. But I'm assuming there wasn't nearly as many sketches for the artists to do in Premier either.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #32 (permalink)
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That's an interesting idea for sure

One thing I would say about Premier--from my limited experience of looking at other releases, it seems like the "average" sketch in there is of a higher quality than what you see in other products. Other than a few examples that really stand out, I haven't seen many from Premier that make me think "Wow, they really rushed that one" like I do sometimes with other products. But I'm assuming there wasn't nearly as many sketches for the artists to do in Premier either.
Exactly. What is Premier, a 50 card base set? So, each artist only had the potential to do 50 cards. One each character, as far as I can tell. The hinged cards are where they had variance to choose. It's a set that seems way more plausible to have very well done sketches just never even show up for sale in the first place. UD has quite the history with things like that, so I don't put it past them for one second.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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It's an age old discussion.

Guys with empty pockets are jealous of the guys with deep pockets. They get upset when they see a card they want but can't afford. They get mad when they spring for a box or two and pull something that they can't "flip" for a huge profit. The collectors expectations are based off of the manufactures preview cards which generally show the best of the best. So they get pissy when they pull something that isn't "high dollar".

As far as the artist's go. It's a very cliquish group. Just the way it is.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I think Marvel Premier is a big culprit in the sports guys buying into non-sports. The non-sport hobby hasn't had a product like this before, where on the sports side of things it's not uncommon for someone to pay $200 for a box of cards that contains as little as ONE CARD! It was a big gamble on UD's part and it seems that it has been fairly well received.
Marvel Premier did WONDERS for this hobby, and I will be the first to admit that I was dead wrong about it. The price point hooked the sports guys, rather than driving them away.

Amazing.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:59 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I think some negative attitudes about eBay sellers are are the consequence of eBay's selling policies.

Back in 2008, eBay fundamentally changed its fee structure. Sellers used to have to pay to play. Want to list a card for triple what similar cards have sold for? Go ahead but it would cost you a lot of money upfront in insertion fees and your listing would expire in a week. Years ago, sellers were highly motivated to price accurately or risk getting eaten alive by listing and re-listing fees.

Since then, insertion fees have been drastically reduced and listing durations lengthened. Sellers are less motivated to price accurately because insertion fees are negligible. Why list a card for $100 (or as an auction) when you could list for $300 for the same fee? If it doesn't sell, no problem. Re-list in your eBay Store for a month for 20 cents or less, or wait for next month's free listing promotion.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Since then, insertion fees have been drastically reduced and listing durations lengthened. Sellers are less motivated to price accurately because insertion fees are negligible.
Isn't the other side of the same coin that there are far more auctions and BINs to chose from? I mean, surely that opened up more options for things like cards?

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Why list a card for $100 (or as an auction) when you could list for $300 for the same fee? If it doesn't sell, no problem.
Well, I mean, if you need that $100 or you'd like to sell the card instead of staring at that auction for five years, then yeah there is a problem. You're right that the motivation to sell was lessened but I don't think it's as extreme as you're painting it. They still want to sell cards.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:08 PM   #37 (permalink)
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That's an interesting idea for sure

One thing I would say about Premier--from my limited experience of looking at other releases, it seems like the "average" sketch in there is of a higher quality than what you see in other products. Other than a few examples that really stand out, I haven't seen many from Premier that make me think "Wow, they really rushed that one" like I do sometimes with other products. But I'm assuming there wasn't nearly as many sketches for the artists to do in Premier either.
Now we must get controversial and subjective, and hopefully a discussion of talent, technique, and aesthetics does not degrade into flames.

The Marvel Premier sketches are fully realized in craftsmanship, because the artists got paid more for them. However, in my humble opinion, there is an element of intensity and style that is still missing in many of the cards. There is something special about the actual line that comes from the hands of artists like Melike Acar and Nar! That intangible difference really stands out against a huge field of more "normal" lines and styles.

The BIGGEST attitude problems in this hobby have always come in here. When someone tries to explain a "good" versus a "bad" sketch. The artists who create sketch cards are REALLY sensitive and they will break out the pitchforks as soon as anyone is accused of created a subpar sketch.

But I am not even talking about lack of effort. I am talking about that otherworldly talent gap between the high-end artist and the rest. Very controversial topic, rarely even attempted on a message board since it is so extremely volitale.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:15 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Now we must get controversial and subjective, and hopefully a discussion of talent, technique, and aesthetics does not degrade into flames.

The Marvel Premier sketches are fully realized in craftsmanship, because the artists got paid more for them. However, in my humble opinion, there is an element of intensity and style that is still missing in many of the cards. There is something special about the actual line that comes from the hands of artists like Melike Acar and Nar! That intangible difference really stands out against a huge field of more "normal" lines and styles.

The BIGGEST attitude problems in this hobby have always come in here. When someone tries to explain a "good" versus a "bad" sketch. The artists who create sketch cards are REALLY sensitive and they will break out the pitchforks as soon as anyone is accused of created a subpar sketch.

But I am not even talking about lack of effort. I am talking about that otherworldly talent gap between the high-end artist and the rest. Very controversial topic, rarely even attempted on a message board since it is so extremely volitale.
LOL--yeah, I can see how that discussion could get heated in a hurry.

I understand that once your name has been built up to a certain point, you can command more per sketch, not have to do as many, and spend the time you want on the ones you do create. Obviously, the more you have to churn out, the less attention you can give the work. Look no further than at the difference between some of the APs artists create versus the sketches in these products.

My point that I didn't state as well as I should have given the dangerous ground here is that it just seemed like from the work that the artists got to spend more time on the Premier sketches. I mean we all know that, but I mean it's obvious in the work itself. I've seen work from the same artists in Premier and then in Bronze Age and it's like, "Wow, what a difference".

And while I've done my share of art history studies and enjoy art of all kinds tremendously, I have absolutely zero artistic talent. So for the artists out there: you all have my awe when it comes to that I'm certainly not going to say who's good and who's not--especially based on these sketch cards.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:17 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Marvel Premier did WONDERS for this hobby, and I will be the first to admit that I was dead wrong about it. The price point hooked the sports guys, rather than driving them away.

Amazing.
All it means is there will be more product coming out that I can't afford.

And as far as Marvel Premier's overall sketch quality being better than other releases, I really don't see that. You've got a few artists that you won't currently find in any other product, but I see plenty of work that could have come from any number of releases.

The sketches I've seen from Marvel Bronze Age have impressed me a lot.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:17 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Other than skulls or monkey sketches in Indiana Jones, I don't think I'd bother to argue sketch 'quality' with / between artists. While some people love the look of Katie Cook's work, I beg to differ and I'll just leave it at that out of respect for each persons right to collect whatever they like at whatever price they want to pay.

The feebay thing is, indeed, a good point. The sellers are way more likely to just list a crazy BIN and let it ride for 30 days... and relist, and relist. This would be a direct result of the 'sports guys' getting involved. I've picked up stuff like Joe Montana , Joe Namath, and various other HOFer on card autographs for less than half what the going rate should be on there. It's because they'll poorly list a title, end it at a crazy time, or just pure luck. Due to this, most every sports collector / dealer that lists on feebay is going the BIN/BO route to have zero risk to a low ending price at auction.

This kind of works in the sketch card world but, with so little reference to go by, it's definitely not an angle to work unless you really know your stuff.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:18 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I've noticed in the sketch world, there's a lot of negative attitudes towards eBay sellers and flippers in general.
A lot of what has been said is fantastic and dead on, but another trend that is happening are people breaking boxes and posting pics saying "Here is what I pulled, I have no idea who the artist is, what's it worth."

If flippers/sellers seemingly don't put any effort into figuring out the values, artists, etc it's rather off putting to many non-sport collectors.

Additionally there just seems to be a pretty distinct personality difference between the average non-sport collectors and sports card collectors.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:47 PM   #42 (permalink)
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While some people love the look of Katie Cook's work, I beg to differ and I'll just leave it at that out of respect for each persons right to collect whatever they like at whatever price they want to pay.
Thank you so much. I wanted to continue, using Katie Cook as an example, and you brought her into this. Awesome.

There are quite a few artists that are doing Chibi sketches at the moment, but Katie Cook's line quality and style really are THAT MUCH better. Her style is pure, and her talent is immense. Not only has she been doing that thing for longer than most, but her drawings have a sense of authenticity that is impossible to deny yet impossible to prove.

I love it. It is so obvious. And I bet it drives people crazy if they don't understand it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Thank you so much. I wanted to continue, using Katie Cook as an example, and you brought her into this. Awesome.

There are quite a few artists that are doing Chibi sketches at the moment, but Katie Cook's line quality and style really are THAT MUCH better. Her style is pure, and her talent is immense. Not only has she been doing that thing for longer than most, but her drawings have a sense of authenticity that is impossible to deny yet impossible to prove.

I love it. It is so obvious. And I bet it drives people crazy if they don't understand it.
Great point. I wonder how many of the sports guys delving into non-sports would realize how much one of her sketches is actually worth?

I pulled one of her fully rendered sketches from a box of Clone Wars Widevision and the quality and detail in it were astounding, yet to the casual viewer I'm sure it would look very simplistic. Admittedly, I don't really like that style but I can appreciate a good piece of art. I've bought art of subjects I don't even like just based on the quality of the work. That's the type of thinking that is lost on many sports collectors - would they purchase a card of a player on a team they don't like based on the photography on the card? I doubt it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:13 PM   #44 (permalink)
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^ Yep, I totally get it, but not at those prices. I had tried to get an AP from her a few years back, but it failed to materialize so I moved on. I used to draw quite a bit way back, and my uncle was an art professor at a university for his entire career, so I can totally appreciate each medium and style.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #45 (permalink)
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... I've bought art of subjects I don't even like just based on the quality of the work. That's the type of thinking that is lost on many sports collectors - would they purchase a card of a player on a team they don't like based on the photography on the card? I doubt it.
Truth, right there. I've got a bunch of sketches just because I was drawn to the quality of it. I couldn't care less who did it so much as the visual appeal it has.

As for sports cards, yes, I do collect sets based on design, functionality and overall visual appeal! I've resorted to collecting on card, hall of famer autograph sets from the early 2000's due to Upper Deck's superb and unmatched designs and layout. Nothing compares to their old Legends sets. And, as things would have it, it turns out to be great investment material as are top quality pieces of art.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
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And then she went and really threw the equation out of wack by becoming a successful comic book writer. Katie Cook is now the writer of the hottest comic book in the world with My Little Pony, drawn by Andy Price.

Her cards should get even hotter, simply off that.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:18 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Truth, right there. I've got a bunch of sketches just because I was drawn to the quality of it. I couldn't care less who did it so much as the visual appeal it has.

As for sports cards, yes, I do collect sets based on design, functionality and overall visual appeal! I've resorted to collecting on card, hall of famer autograph sets from the early 2000's due to Upper Deck's superb and unmatched designs and layout. Nothing compares to their old Legends sets. And, as things would have it, it turns out to be great investment material as are top quality pieces of art.
Nice--the Legends autos are works of art. Best set ever.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
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As for sports cards, yes, I do collect sets based on design, functionality and overall visual appeal! I've resorted to collecting on card, hall of famer autograph sets from the early 2000's due to Upper Deck's superb and unmatched designs and layout. Nothing compares to their old Legends sets. And, as things would have it, it turns out to be great investment material as are top quality pieces of art.
You got me there, didn't think of that angle - I love the art sets myself. I'm not a big hockey guy, but I own the original painting of Bobby Clarke that was used for this UD Masterpieces card. It's spectacular.

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Old 12-06-2012, 05:56 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I'd like to add that Rian's blog is an excellent source of Artist info when there isn't a Miami Heat animation GO HEAT!!
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It's criminal how under-appreciated/under-valued some of these recent sketch cards by "published professionals" from Upper Deck are... Rian has definitely done more than his part with giving a heads-up along with opinion and facts. I mean no disrespect to Rittenhouse or any artists specifically. Just trying to shine light on the seemingly unknown awesome talent (partially because of low sketch counts) that Upper Deck has had a revolving door with in the last couple years and give a shout-out to a "qualified opinion" (Rian Fike).
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I'm VERY new to the sketch card community, but I will say Katie Cook's work is the some of the most impressive to me. I love it. When I am able to afford a high end piece, it will most certainly be hers.
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