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Old 12-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by webjon View Post
A lot of what has been said is fantastic and dead on, but another trend that is happening are people breaking boxes and posting pics saying "Here is what I pulled, I have no idea who the artist is, what's it worth."

If flippers/sellers seemingly don't put any effort into figuring out the values, artists, etc it's rather off putting to many non-sport collectors.

Additionally there just seems to be a pretty distinct personality difference between the average non-sport collectors and sports card collectors.
A-muthafricking-MEN!

When I came into the world of non-sport about 6 years ago, I didn't ask nor did expect anyone to hold my hand and give me the knowledge. I scoured eBay, NSU and Scoundrel and DID MY HOMEWORK for a good 2-3 years before I felt that I had somewhat of a decent handle on the market and the hobby.

While I have not abandoned sports cards (I have over 15 years in as a show dealer), I much more enjoy the time spent with folks at non-sport shows. They are many times more pasionate about their collections and not everyone is running arround the show looking for bargain basement prices so that they can pretend they are a delaer on ebay.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:18 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I look through completed auctions of the Marvel Bronze age sketches and just shake my head in amazement. The things people shelled out $250 for is beyond my understanding. A lot of the $50 stuff that was gone on BIN's goes to character collectors who can't wait and overpay. Just have patience and you'll still be able to collect a very nice assortment of works by various artists.
I sifted through a lot of the completed sales, and for the most part saw only strong pieces being sold. But quite honestly, it's all perspective. And what I mean is, if someone sees something they like, then they should buy it...if it is within their means. Don't be like me, who passed on a Charles Hall sketch last nite, only to find out all of them are now gone. A big collector picked them all up, most likely never to be seen again. Probably for the best, I shouldn't buy anything else anyways.

As for the points made by Iggy/Jon, etc, I agree. BUT I also think many of you guys forget the majority of people out there still have no clue what sketch cards even are. YES there is a saturation of them on ebay. But everyday I come in contact with local people who didn't even know they existed.

I firmly believe that in time some sketches will seriously be sought. And to a degree we can't even fathom. For instance: We know Hall/Acar are already on the high side of sales. BUT do you know what happens if either artist starts doing comics regularly? They bring in a whole new audience for any original art of there's, and yes that includes sketches.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
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As Nick, Byron and a few others know, I am more than happy to give my imput and even buying suggestions when the person who is asking shows that they actually give a ratsass about learning the hobby. It is the "others" who have been around for a little bit but are too lazy to put some work into research that tick folks off.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Several people have been very nice to me about helping me out with learning about sketches, the whole AP thing, and other aspects of this hobby, which I've really appreciated. So I can vouch for the whole "people will help if you're not just in it for selling" thing.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:57 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Monkey - Great thread! As you know, I'm pretty new to the game too, having only started collecting a couple of months before you. Being a man of strong opinions I have some things I'd like to add and for everybody's sake I hope I'm not too repetitive with what other people have already said.

(1) I totally agree with the premise of your thread. I feel as if I have made that very same observation. I was surprised to read so many responses that didn't think this was a widespread opinion.

(2) I always thought the underlying concern about the rip-n-flip dealers was that they were driving up the demand for sketch cards BY THE CARD COMPANIES which was resulting in an overall LOWER QUALITY OF SKETCH CARDS. Being a new collector, I have no experience to comment on this. The sketches I have seen for sale on that auction site from Marvel Masterpiece sets are generally pretty poor compared to what I see from modern sets, but maybe that is just because all the good ones are in peoples collections already? From a completely logical perspective though, it does make sense that the demand for sketch cards would lead to (a) artists doing less detailed work to complete more cards and (b) less talented artists being offered work to meet the needs and (c) lowering the standards for accepting/rejecting cards to insert into packs. I have gotten complaints from several ARTISTS that their AP cards are being held to a much higher standard compared to pack inserted cards and are being rejected more frequently than in the past.

(3) I don't have deep pockets. Since I don't want to sink my entire budget into 1 card, I try to limit myself to about a $40 max unless I really really want the card. For this reason, I usually buy a sealed box. A chance to hit something I can never afford! If Premier prices drop off in a couple of months (big if) then I'll pick up a couple of packs. If I don't hit something big, I don't cry and whine about it. Luck of the draw. I play the lottery when the jackpot gets really high too

(4) I judge the value of an artist by AUCTIONS. BIN prices are often ridiculous, in my opinion. Not that I didn't BIN anything - I got 2 cards, $40 and $45. I'll probably BIN a lot more in a couple of weeks when the prices drop though. My wish list is full

(5) Is there a such thing as a Premium Sketch Card or are there only Premium Artists? I think a Glebe is a Glebe and a Hall is a Hall. I do not believe a Hall is worth more because it came in a $200 box instead of a $60 box. For Marvel Premier - I didn't BIN anything, because I thought those initial BIN prices were too high. I think that single panel sketches actually sold for lower prices at auction compared to previous sets because of the increased availability of the cards. I picked up 2 sweet Sara Richard sketch cards for under $45 each. Her Bronze Age sketches are all BIN of like $125+. (Spider-Fan <3 Marvel Premier)

(6) I love to buy APs when I can afford them. For the 5finity stuff, I inquired about a lot of APs and ended up buying 8 Cherry APs (so far) compared to a 10 pack purchase. Unfortunately the licensed Marvel stuff tends to cost a lot more - but I'm willing to pay more when I know I am paying the artist for their work, and not just paying some guy for opening up a pack of cards.

I think my overall opinion is that rip-n-flip dealers offer a service, and it is a service I like. I can pick and chose sketch cards I want. I don't have to purchase cases of product to get a bunch of sketch cards. Yes, I have to pay a premium for this service. It is the service I am paying for. Its unfortunate that I can't afford to buy a Glebe, a Hall, an Acar, etc... So I still buy a box or three. Which is good, because I want to make a base set. A single base set, not 20 base sets!

I do however have complaints about the card companies. I would like to see smaller runs and more creativity with the sets. I would like to see stricter standards on the characters allowed in sets (this has been said, I agree). I want the artists to be paid on time. If an artist's AP gets rejected, I think the company should replace it, especially if they are holding that AP to a higher standard than a pack inserted card. I also want world peace.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:11 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Thanks for your feedback Spider-Fan--I feel better knowing that you were seeing some of the same things I did

You make several great points--my particular favorite is that when you are "overpaying" with the flippers you're really paying for the service they provide. How many of these sketch cards would just be sitting in boxes if they weren't breaking in these quantities? I get people are concerned about their impact on the values and that's worth thinking about, but on the particular issue of getting sketches into the market I don't think you can argue that they have a positive influence on that (unless you don't have money available with they do that ).

Also, totally agree about your last paragraph. Especially paying the artists on time.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:18 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I'm just glad I'm off from work tomorrow I've been a zombie the last 2 days, and I didn't even buy anything last night! I'm sleeping in tomorrow.

Keep up the good threads.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:50 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
(2) I always thought the underlying concern about the rip-n-flip dealers was that they were driving up the demand for sketch cards BY THE CARD COMPANIES which was resulting in an overall LOWER QUALITY OF SKETCH CARDS. Being a new collector, I have no experience to comment on this. The sketches I have seen for sale on that auction site from Marvel Masterpiece sets are generally pretty poor compared to what I see from modern sets, but maybe that is just because all the good ones are in peoples collections already? From a completely logical perspective though, it does make sense that the demand for sketch cards would lead to (a) artists doing less detailed work to complete more cards and (b) less talented artists being offered work to meet the needs and (c) lowering the standards for accepting/rejecting cards to insert into packs. I have gotten complaints from several ARTISTS that their AP cards are being held to a much higher standard compared to pack inserted cards and are being rejected more frequently than in the past.
Actually, most artists are doing FAR fewer cards per set than they did in the past. As an example, here is a list of artists and their cards for the Lord of the Rings Evolution set (I think the first sketch set that I purchased):

Artist # Cards
Ryan Benjamin 106
Joseph Booth 357
Dennis Budd 206
Matt Busch 156
Jeff Chandler 300
Justin Chung 130
Joe Corroney 150
Cynthia Cummens 356
Renae De Liz 206
Ray Dillon 306
Dave Dorman 250
Michael Duron 206
Jan Duursema 150
Chris Eliopoulos 106
Scott Erwert 250
Davide Fabbri 1000
Otis Frampton 1006
Grant Gould 206
Paul Gutierrez 1006
Gabriel Hernandez 80
Thomas Hodges 1006
James Hodgkins 1000
Rafael Kayanan 250
Mike Lilly 150
Tom Mandrake 500
Randy Martinez 1000
John McCrea 400
Mary Mitchell 200
Rich Molinelli 150
Monte Moore 150
Jake Myler 506
Dan Norton 307
William O'Neill 250
Dan Parsons 500
Amy Pronovost 506
David Rabbitte 206
Juan Carlos Ramos 200
Brian Rood 500
Howard Shum 1000
Allison Sohn 206
Cat Staggs 506
Robert Teranishi 600
Christian Dalla Vecchia 1000
Russ Walks 200
Sarah Wilkinson 306
Brent Woodside 1000
Jeff Zapata 100

The main problem is that there are soooooo many sets that feature sketch cards, the artists' workloads remain very high. Also factor in that the artists make only a couple of bucks per card and the bulk of their earnigns are through their "Returns" or AP's (by the way, you don't own a single 5finity AP....they are called AE's or Artist Exclusives )
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:58 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Wow--that's a lot of sketches. Any idea of how long the turnaround time is on these for a product?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:00 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Totals for Star Wars Heritage

Ryan Benjamin 195
Matt Busch 2,000
Jeff Carlisle 781
Brian Ching 702
Joe Corroney 506
Cynthia Cummens 350
Dave Dorman 195
Jan Duursema 365
Tommy Lee Edwards 195
Chris Elipoulos 106
Davide Fabbri 2,530
Thomas Hodges 2,000
James Hodgkins 400
Jeff Johnson 195
Rafael Kayanan 195
Ray Lago 188
Mike Lemos 432
Mike Lilly 100
Randy Martinez 3,030
John McCrea 1,521
Brandon McKinney 106
Mary Mitchell 170
Jake Myler 170
William O'Neil 276
Dan Parsons 767
Dimitri Patelis 106
Sean Philips 506
Kilian Plunkett 432
David Rabbitte 198
Ron Randall 195
Paul Rudish 262
Robert Teranishi 1,025
Chris Trevas 195
Christian Dalla Vecchia 1,030
Russell Walks 519
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:56 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Randy Martinez 3,030
How many blanks (to be safe) do you think he got?
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:42 AM   #62 (permalink)
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The better question is, did anyone (including Topps) make more money from this set than Randy did as aftermarket sketches were still being allowed. He would turn one of is scribbles into a stunning piece of work...for a price.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:22 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Okay... I'm about to do one of those things that was complained about earlier in this thread BUT I'm a collector not a flipper, so its okay

This was my first midnight release party. I knew Tony Perna was a popular artist, but I was still surprised at the BIN prices. I pulled this Perna right when I started collecting. Is it much more valuable than I thought? I wouldn't have placed it as more than $50. Not that I plan on selling it, but it would be good to know for trading purposes.


Last edited by Spider-Fan; 12-07-2012 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:54 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Okay... I'm about to do one of those things that was complained about earlier in this thread BUT I'm a collector not a flipper, so its okay

This was my first midnight release party. I knew Tony Perna was a popular artist, but I was still surprised at the BIN prices. I pulled this Perna right when I started collecting. Is it much more valuable than I thought? I wouldn't have placed it as more than $50. Not that I plan on selling it, but it would be good to know for trading purposes.

There was one from another product in B&W that sold for $71, so I'd say it was a good buy. But I guess a lot depends on Perna's print run for that product, which I don't know.

2007 Marvel Masterpieces Sketch Tony Perna Print Run 75 Thor 1 1 Gem Mint Card | eBay
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:51 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Its funny. I really hadn't seen to many of Tony's cards listed over the past six months or so that I have really been keeping an eye on eBay. I guess its because they are way outside the price limits I usually use to filter down my search results.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Character can inflate or deflate prices too. Females are usually worth a bit more, and Ms. Marvel is fairly popular.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Its funny. I really hadn't seen to many of Tony's cards listed over the past six months or so that I have really been keeping an eye on eBay. I guess its because they are way outside the price limits I usually use to filter down my search results.
I sold this -->


for $140 shipped if that helps. Pretty sure Perna did very few sketches for Avengers Assemble (might want to look @ the Scoundrels thread).

Back on topic about flippers... holy crap anyone realize how many posts are @ Scoundrel for Marvel Bronze Age?! Back in the day (like a year ago), there would be PAGES of pulls within the first week. So far there are TWO posts @ Scoundrel... maybe everyone was waiting on the flippers/big sellers, lol.

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:01 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I sold this -->


for $140 shipped if that helps. Pretty sure Perna did very few sketches for Avengers Assemble (might want to look @ the Scoundrels thread).

Back on topic about flippers... holy crap anyone realize how many posts are @ Scoundrel for Marvel Bronze Age?! Back in the day (like a year ago), there would be PAGES of pulls within the first week. So far there are TWO posts @ Scoundrel... maybe everyone was waiting on the flippers/big sellers, lol.
where is the fun in just buying cards of the bay....
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:20 PM   #69 (permalink)
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where is the fun in just buying cards of the bay....
I disagree, strongly. I could have never built the high quality of my collection without buying singles, almost exclusively.

There is WAY too much of a gamble to try to get what you want in boxes when it comes to sketch cards.

Singles are the only way for me, and I have more fun than you could ever imagine.

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:32 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I disagree, strongly. I could have never built the high quality of my collection without buying singles, almost exclusively.

There is WAY too much of a gamble to try to get what you want in boxes when it comes to sketch cards.

Singles are the only way for me, and I have more fun than you could ever imagine.


True!

But, personally, I had a blast refreshing those threads and seeing others breaks and reaction. Also facilitated trading so you can get the sketch you are looking for.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:59 PM   #71 (permalink)
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for $140 shipped if that helps. Pretty sure Perna did very few sketches for Avengers Assemble (might want to look @ the Scoundrels thread).

Back on topic about flippers... holy crap anyone realize how many posts are @ Scoundrel for Marvel Bronze Age?! Back in the day (like a year ago), there would be PAGES of pulls within the first week. So far there are TWO posts @ Scoundrel... maybe everyone was waiting on the flippers/big sellers, lol.
Thank you. And, to add to your comment on the Scoundrel forum... one of those posts is a flipper
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:31 PM   #72 (permalink)
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True!

But, personally, I had a blast refreshing those threads and seeing others breaks and reaction. Also facilitated trading so you can get the sketch you are looking for.
I totally agree with that. Scoundrel was a wonderful watering hole for a while, here's hoping it comes back stronger than ever.

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Old 12-07-2012, 07:49 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rian Fike View Post
I disagree, strongly. I could have never built the high quality of my collection without buying singles, almost exclusively.

There is WAY too much of a gamble to try to get what you want in boxes when it comes to sketch cards.

Singles are the only way for me, and I have more fun than you could ever imagine.

I see your point but for me the rush you get from the gamble is so much fun win or lose!

I spent about 30k in the past 7 months so i am back to saving some $$ for Horrors of War 2 and Marvel Premier 2 if it comes out
But Horrors of War 2 will be getting a lot of my pay when it comes out!
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:57 PM   #74 (permalink)
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LOL--yeah, I can see how that discussion could get heated in a hurry.

I understand that once your name has been built up to a certain point, you can command more per sketch, not have to do as many, and spend the time you want on the ones you do create. Obviously, the more you have to churn out, the less attention you can give the work. Look no further than at the difference between some of the APs artists create versus the sketches in these products.

My point that I didn't state as well as I should have given the dangerous ground here is that it just seemed like from the work that the artists got to spend more time on the Premier sketches. I mean we all know that, but I mean it's obvious in the work itself. I've seen work from the same artists in Premier and then in Bronze Age and it's like, "Wow, what a difference".

And while I've done my share of art history studies and enjoy art of all kinds tremendously, I have absolutely zero artistic talent. So for the artists out there: you all have my awe when it comes to that I'm certainly not going to say who's good and who's not--especially based on these sketch cards.
Actually a lot of the artists didn't get MP blanks until almost 2 months before deadline due to printing issues at UD. Some are faster and can crank out quality some couldn't and did rushed work. Before my issues with UD came up and stopped me from working on MP I had aid out some really cool stuff due to having more space to work on. I've since erased most of them except a Galactus painting I'd already started and a few of the base cards. We did get the bums rush on the cards. It's typical UD they always overlap product. There have been times we were doing two sets for them at the same time due in at the same time even though release was months apart. And no not many negotiated up their base price for the regular or hinged cards. Most didn't know they could. So a lot of regular artists worked on these cards for 2 bucks a hinge.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:47 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I heard "I said yes I'll do a 3 hinged sketch for $8, but I didn't know I had to do 3 panels on the other side too"
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