Sketch collectors attitudes towards sellers

[monkeymcgee]

I think I liked it better not knowing how the sausage got made.

Wow--I can't believe how little they are paying the artists who do this great work.

[lucky4444]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

I think I liked it better not knowing how the sausage got made.

Wow--I can't believe how little they are paying the artists who do this great work.

yeah, that really sucks

[justice41]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I heard "I said yes I'll do a 3 hinged sketch for $8, but I didn't know I had to do 3 panels on the other side too"

Exactly. I cranked up my rate to normal which is 5 bucks a card so they were going to lose money on my hinged cards. I didn't want to do this set and wound up not doing it but I still have the blanks because we are still disputing some money they owe me.

[justice41]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

I think I liked it better not knowing how the sausage got made.

Wow--I can't believe how little they are paying the artists who do this great work.

Well now I don't know what Jusko or Mayhew charged to do the cards or even what Nar charged but I do know regular artists were being paid 2 dollars a card for UD and 5 dollars for just about every other company. the AP's is where we make our money supposedly but if we doon't do outstanding work on the regular cards we can't make up the difference for time spent, selling AP's. So artists with low skills will do a lot of cards. or even good artists will do a lot because they just won't have time to do AP"s.I have over 200 AP's and AE's sitting here that I haven't had a chance to sell much less draw an sell. So yeah do us all a favor buy AP's and get the card prics down because much like any market Bubbles are created and they do pop. And this price thing is what causes bubbles.

[Spider-Fan]

Now, I don't mean to be a total douche here... I like to buy APs from the artist over buying a card I like from a dealer BUT I can't justify paying $100, $150, or $200 for an AP when I can get a very nice card from that same artist for $15-$40. I understand that the AP will be better, but... for me that is a lot of money to pay for a 2.5 x 3.5 sketch. If an artist's AP is 10-25% greater than their eBay value, I will ALWAYS seek out an AP first. For 5finity stuff, I gravitate towards artist blanks or returns because they are usually within my budget. But for Marvel licensed sets it can be tough.

Also - obviously a RA oversized AP that has more surface than 2 standard cards commands a higher price. But in my experience, a lot of artists charge more for an UD AP than they do for an RA? Huh?

Justice41 - As an artist who seems to be pretty much fed up with this game, or at least with Upper Deck, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. I'm really curious what the mindset is. Again, I hope I haven't offended you or any other artist with that comment.

Apparently I've been offending artists lately, right Monkey? You know all of my posts have been removed from that thread

[Zoop]

In the GPK community it is frowned upon to buy and flip. I'm aligned with them in that specific field. I can't speak for Marvel/DC sketch collectors, etc., just my opinion on the GPK market.

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

Apparently I've been offending artists lately, right Monkey? You know all of my posts have been removed from that thread

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I have had some good interactions with Frank, but I think he overreacted on that one.

[Spider-Fan]

I'm very sarcastic. I rub a lot of people the wrong way. I didn't think I "derailed" his thread but oh well whatever. Lesson learned, only post "Really great stuff, please place your balls on my chin at your earliest convenience." The only thing that comes out of his reaction is losing me as a potential client.

[mcguirem13]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I'm very sarcastic. I rub a lot of people the wrong way. I didn't think I "derailed" his thread but oh well whatever. Lesson learned, only post "Really great stuff, please place your balls on my chin at your earliest convenience." The only thing that comes out of his reaction is losing me as a potential client.

What happened? Who did you piss off?

[Spider-Fan]

Originally Posted by mcguirem13

What happened? Who did you piss off?

I'm not really interested in badmouthing artists, so I'm going to leave it between me, Monkey, and anybody else who happened to read the thread before it was altered to remove all evidence of said derailment.

It wasn't here on blowout though.

[Zerokruel]

Originally Posted by Igman7

As Nick, Byron and a few others know, I am more than happy to give my imput and even buying suggestions when the person who is asking shows that they actually give a ratsass about learning the hobby. It is the "others" who have been around for a little bit but are too lazy to put some work into research that tick folks off.

You're a gentlemen and a scholar good sir! I always appreciate your time and opinion.

[Cujobyte]

Originally Posted by Zerokruel

You're a gentlemen and a scholar good sir! I always appreciate your time and opinion.

Same here! Both Iggy and Byron were very helpful when I started collecting cards back in March. Iggy would always take the time to help me identify artists, and just a great member of this community.

[justice41]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

Now, I don't mean to be a total douche here... I like to buy APs from the artist over buying a card I like from a dealer BUT I can't justify paying $100, $150, or $200 for an AP when I can get a very nice card from that same artist for $15-$40. I understand that the AP will be better, but... for me that is a lot of money to pay for a 2.5 x 3.5 sketch. If an artist's AP is 10-25% greater than their eBay value, I will ALWAYS seek out an AP first. For 5finity stuff, I gravitate towards artist blanks or returns because they are usually within my budget. But for Marvel licensed sets it can be tough.

Also - obviously a RA oversized AP that has more surface than 2 standard cards commands a higher price. But in my experience, a lot of artists charge more for an UD AP than they do for an RA? Huh?

Justice41 - As an artist who seems to be pretty much fed up with this game, or at least with Upper Deck, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. I'm really curious what the mindset is. Again, I hope I haven't offended you or any other artist with that comment.

Apparently I've been offending artists lately, right Monkey? You know all of my posts have been removed from that thread

Not sure what you are asking, but if it's about AP prices, well it goes this way from what I can tell. We get paid buttkiss for our inserts so the company can make money and we artists can have a venue to sell our own art as PSC's. The AP's are official licensed and approved artwork unlike the crap most toss up as PSC's. The AP's are supplemental income. Which tells anyone paying attention that even the companies are telling us we are being hosed. It's a little like a trick a lot of indy comics pull with the whole back end or percentage of profit deals. But it's the deal that's out there and we are grown ups and if we don't like the deal we can drop out. My deal with UD is strictly about not being paid for work done. I refuse to do any more than 3 separate jobs for any single client unless all past payments are made. This keeps me from being strung along. I'd rather drop em than being led around until they think I've forgotten or given up.
And no I'm not fed up with the sketch card thing. I don't draw for collectors so whatever they do i don't really care. I draw what I like, if people like it good if not, good. makes no never mind. My only concern is this whole price thing is looking a whole lot like the comics speculators from the 90's.Keep in mind prices of anything can only be maintained for a short while before the bubble bursts. By artificially inflating prices, flippers and dealers will eventually kill the sketch card business. just a matter of time.

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by justice41

Not sure what you are asking, but if it's about AP prices, well it goes this way from what I can tell. We get paid buttkiss for our inserts so the company can make money and we artists can have a venue to sell our own art as PSC's. The AP's are official licensed and approved artwork unlike the crap most toss up as PSC's. The AP's are supplemental income. Which tells anyone paying attention that even the companies are telling us we are being hosed. It's a little like a trick a lot of indy comics pull with the whole back end or percentage of profit deals. But it's the deal that's out there and we are grown ups and if we don't like the deal we can drop out. My deal with UD is strictly about not being paid for work done. I refuse to do any more than 3 separate jobs for any single client unless all past payments are made. This keeps me from being strung along. I'd rather drop em than being led around until they think I've forgotten or given up.
And no I'm not fed up with the sketch card thing. I don't draw for collectors so whatever they do i don't really care. I draw what I like, if people like it good if not, good. makes no never mind. My only concern is this whole price thing is looking a whole lot like the comics speculators from the 90's.Keep in mind prices of anything can only be maintained for a short while before the bubble bursts. By artificially inflating prices, flippers and dealers will eventually kill the sketch card business. just a matter of time.

Coming from the sports card world, I'm less worried about the bubble in sketch cards than I was about sports cards. At the end of the day, with a sketch card you at least have a piece of art that will have some kind of intrinsic value plus whatever "prestige" value there is based on the artist and their career. Plus if you have a popular character as the subject, there will always be the fans of that character who will value it as well. But you're right that with each new release, the work of any given artists involved decreases somewhat in value due to the increased supply.

It's interesting to think about the increasing number of sketch cards versus other examples of from the collecting world because each one actually is unique. You can over-saturate the market, but if they keep bringing in new collectors that will help with that.

[Rian Fike]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan

I'm very sarcastic. I rub a lot of people the wrong way. I didn't think I "derailed" his thread but oh well whatever.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but the artists in this hobby tend to be REALLY sensitive.

Good luck with that.

[webjon]

Originally Posted by justice41

My only concern is this whole price thing is looking a whole lot like the comics speculators from the 90's.Keep in mind prices of anything can only be maintained for a short while before the bubble bursts. By artificially inflating prices, flippers and dealers will eventually kill the sketch card business. just a matter of time.

This could certainly happen if a lot of dealers are sitting on a lot of inventory that they refuse to sell at the price the market will bear.

That said I think the only real license at risk for that is Marvel as they keep churning out Marvel sketch cards . . . The print runs on many other sketch products are absurdly low. Marvel does have the largest fan base though, and also the fan base that's the most likely to grow. . .

I thought the market was saturated several years ago, but nothing seems to have changed. . .

I think the biggest risk, actually, is buyers. There are a small number of buyers that pay a ton of money for certain sketches. If a couple of top buyers drop out that could cause a big ripple effect.

Jon

[dd316]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

But you're right that with each new release, the work of any given artists involved decreases somewhat in value due to the increased supply.

That's why when I do subsequent sets of the same subject (like Star Wars) I try to change up my approach. So at the end of the day, I might have 25 Yodas out there, but I try to make them different enough that hopefully someone wouldn't mind owning more than one, and it's not like having 25 of the same thing.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by Rian Fike

I think I mentioned it earlier, but the artists in this hobby tend to be REALLY sensitive.

Good luck with that.

Here's the thing - art is subjective, everybody knows that. But the birth of the internet really gave all the haters a voice. And sadly, that voice is much louder than the latter.

It's frustrating reading some of the venom that's being spewed when many times, honestly, it's not warranted. If you don't like the art, don't buy the product. It's not the artist's fault you're unhappy, blame the company that commissioned it. All these card companies have the right to refuse what they consider sub-par work BEFORE it gets into the hands of collectors who plunked down $XXX for it. But keep in mind if you want a better all-around product, it's gonna cost more.

On the same note, I do think some artists could probably use some thicker skin. Criticism is part of the game - if you can't take the heat, find another kitchen. I took a bit of a whuppin' with my work on the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue set. I worked my ass off for 6 months getting that done. And when samples were posted, the first comments out of the gate were "The art sucks.... blah blah blah." Obviously it's not what I wanted to hear, and if you dig into the BO archives my comments on this are still around somewhere, but I kind of took it in stride and used it to improve my work. And you know what, the set was a big success and as I was when I first signed on, I'm very proud of my work.

I'm making lemonade, dammit!!

[monkeymcgee]

Originally Posted by dd316

Here's the thing - art is subjective, everybody knows that. But the birth of the internet really gave all the haters a voice. And sadly, that voice is much louder than the latter.

It's frustrating reading some of the venom that's being spewed when many times, honestly, it's not warranted. If you don't like the art, don't buy the product. It's not the artist's fault you're unhappy, blame the company that commissioned it. All these card companies have the right to refuse what they consider sub-par work BEFORE it gets into the hands of collectors who plunked down $XXX for it. But keep in mind if you want a better all-around product, it's gonna cost more.

On the same note, I do think some artists could probably use some thicker skin. Criticism is part of the game - if you can't take the heat, find another kitchen. I took a bit of a whuppin' with my work on the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue set. I worked my ass off for 6 months getting that done. And when samples were posted, the first comments out of the gate were "The art sucks.... blah blah blah." Obviously it's not what I wanted to hear, and if you dig into the BO archives my comments on this are still around somewhere, but I kind of took it in stride and used it to improve my work. And you know what, the set was a big success and as I was when I first signed on, I'm very proud of my work.

I'm making lemonade, dammit!!

I think part of it too is just the age-old internet issue of not thinking there's a human being on the other side of your ranting. I try to be very mindful of that, but I fall short sometimes too.

This thread has been very informative for me to understand some of the financial and time pressures the companies put the artists under. I can see where even if you aren't super-sensitive about criticism, it would be frustrating to hear collectors bitch about the work you did without knowing these constraints.

[BHotz]

Originally Posted by webjon

This could certainly happen if a lot of dealers are sitting on a lot of inventory that they refuse to sell at the price the market will bear.

That said I think the only real license at risk for that is Marvel as they keep churning out Marvel sketch cards . . . The print runs on many other sketch products are absurdly low. Marvel does have the largest fan base though, and also the fan base that's the most likely to grow. . .

I thought the market was saturated several years ago, but nothing seems to have changed. . .

I think the biggest risk, actually, is buyers. There are a small number of buyers that pay a ton of money for certain sketches. If a couple of top buyers drop out that could cause a big ripple effect.

Jon

Good points.

But things have definitely changed. A few years ago (around the time of Spiderman Archives), the LOWEST sketches went for $18-20... now we see some go for below $5.

"Supply" is to collecting what "Location" is to Real Estate. Monkeymcgee is right that the intrinsic value will alway be there with sketch cards and art. And art is always subjective to "eye of the beholder." So the sky is not falling. But if you are looking at any kind of investment, keep the "supply" thing on your mind as no one is immune to excess supply --> less value. I can think of nearly a dozen high-dollar-Artists that are worth less than half of what they commanded initially. And card sets are completely different animal than Artist Commissions (for the most part) - some Artists seem to forget this.

Hopefully with Rittenhouse going down from 10k boxes of X-Men Archives to 7k boxes of Bronze Age, the suppliers are well aware of the "saturation issue." Now if only Rittenhouse would pick up more ideas of Upper Deck with such as Inserts and comic-industry-Artists though I'm sure it's not as easy to grab those Artists as it is for Upper Deck. Rittenhouse has down well with introducing fresh faces so props there!

[webjon]

Originally Posted by BHotz

But things have definitely changed. A few years ago (around the time of Spiderman Archives), the LOWEST sketches went for $18-20... now we see some go for below $5.

I was actually referring to the manufacturing side not changing, but I can see how I wasn't clear. . .

[Rian Fike]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

This thread has been very informative for me to understand some of the financial and time pressures the companies put the artists under. I can see where even if you aren't super-sensitive about criticism, it would be frustrating to hear collectors bitch about the work you did without knowing these constraints.

While I understand that completely, I also believe that constructive criticism is essential to artitic progress. Call it "bitching" is usually not fair.

There should be a place where collectors can talk about high and low levels of quality in the artwork they are sponsoring, using contructive criticism to advance the hobby.

But no.

Almost every time someone speaks out about skill or effort, no matter what level of quality they are talking about, there is an immediate outcry from the artists.

Not a big problem, just the state of the hobby.

[Rian Fike]

Originally Posted by monkeymcgee

I think I liked it better not knowing how the sausage got made.

Wow--I can't believe how little they are paying the artists who do this great work.

It is a fascinating sub genre within the overlapping cultures of original art, comic books, and trading cards.

Many artists who do sketch cards consider it an entry point into the "official" world of Marvel and DC comics. Most artists would not get much paying work outside of the sketch cards. It allows an artist to get accepted in Artist Alleys in comic conventions. It is demanding and low paying, but it looks great on a resume and in a portfolio and it gets your foot in the door.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by Rian Fike

While I understand that completely, I also believe that constructive criticism is essential to artitic progress. Call it "bitching" is usually not fair.

There should be a place where collectors can talk about high and low levels of quality in the artwork they are sponsoring, using contructive criticism to advance the hobby.

But no.

Almost every time someone speaks out about skill or effort, no matter what level of quality they are talking about, there is an immediate outcry from the artists.

Not a big problem, just the state of the hobby.

Constructive criticism is one thing, it's flat out complaining or spiteful comments that don't help. It's the latter that usually sparks the outcry.

"X Artist really should work on their perspective" is much better than "This artwork is a joke, I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with it!"

I had a great conversation with Warren Martineck at the last Philly Show about my work, and he was extremely helpful in offering suggestions and breaking down a few areas where my art needs more work. I totally respect what he had to say and have been taking his suggestions seriously and applying them. He could have just said my work was sub-par and left it at that, and I'm sure I would have gotten defensive.

[Rian Fike]

Originally Posted by dd316

Constructive criticism is one thing, it's flat out complaining or spiteful comments that don't help. It's the latter that usually sparks the outcry.

"X Artist really should work on their perspective" is much better than "This artwork is a joke, I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with it!"

I had a great conversation with Warren Martineck at the last Philly Show about my work, and he was extremely helpful in offering suggestions and breaking down a few areas where my art needs more work. I totally respect what he had to say and have been taking his suggestions seriously and applying them. He could have just said my work was sub-par and left it at that, and I'm sure I would have gotten defensive.

I haven't seen much litter boxing, and I have seen good constructive criticism that was not taken the right way. The artists in this genre tend to think every comment is spiteful complaining, even when it is not.