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Old 12-10-2012, 04:53 PM   #126 (permalink)
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I think you're confusing the art world with something that is very objective. While it might be easy to spot a Van Gogh over my doodlings the same is not true when you move forward in time. As such, I sort of sympathize with the artists -- especially considering that the internet has given us instant exposure to every artist making them a small fish in an ocean instead of locally a relatively good artist. I think I read in some thread on here about the level of detail going into "chibi" artwork in a sketch card and how most people wouldn't be able to spot it? That's what I'm getting at ... I think Warhol's artwork terrible art hackery and yet the art world called him a revolutionary. Oh well, to each their own. I'd say "Why am I looking at soup cans?" to my friends but I'd politely compliment the artist if he were alive and standing in front me. But saying stuff on the internet puts it out in front of everyone.

You're free to say what you want (this is 'Merica) but I personally don't feel comfortable criticizing work in front of the person that made it and if I do, I make sure it's positive criticism. At the very least I'd say what I like about it first and then mention what I'm really thinking. I write code for a living and I take the same approach during code reviews.

When it's something I do on the side like playing bass guitar, you're free to let me have it. But when the bread and butter and that which I've spent most of my life doing is compared to the greatest out there? And when some random person is telling me it's bad? That's when I think you might get a taste for zero tolerance on the artist's side of this business.

Just a thought, I am not an artist but I appreciate how few revenue streams that profession offers and so I sympathize with them. Personally I'll leave the criticism to those who know how to offer them something useful ... there's no way I'm going to be able to see that, say, the shadows need work even though I might be able to say something's off and my eye doesn't like it.

If you're a paying customer that didn't like the art, there is no feedback better than not purchasing/collecting anymore of their stuff. If you can't specifically tell them what they could improve on to have you buying it left and right, there's really not a great reason to negatively engage. If you're not a paying customer and your 'comments' are largely negative, I think anyone would react negatively in that situation.

That's my own personal thoughts on it anyway.
Great post I feel the same way!
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:54 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Well what's that old saying about those who can, do and those who can't, criticize or some such thing.
Don't turn this discussion into a stupid childish back and forth argument.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:55 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Nice Henri Matisse.

You'd think an art teacher would have figured that one out.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:55 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eldavojohn View Post
I think you're confusing the art world with something that is very objective. While it might be easy to spot a Van Gogh over my doodlings the same is not true when you move forward in time.
There is one simple objective criteria in this particular genre: Sales prices.

Usually, the top talent sells for more. The collectors have been very good at identifying the skilled line and raising the prices by fighting each other for the chance to own it.

Warhol and modern art don't really come into play, since 99.9% of the sketch cards are actual drawings and paintings - not prints or stencils.

Your opinion was very well reasoned and written even if I disagree slightly. You make lots of good points. Thanks!
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:03 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Well what's that old saying about those who can, do and those who can't, criticize or some such thing.
I do. And I teach. Some people can do both. This is one of my paintings, not really a style that would work for sketch cards...

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Old 12-10-2012, 05:09 PM   #131 (permalink)
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There is one simple objective criteria in this particular genre: Sales prices.

Usually, the top talent sells for more.
But your second comment makes it subjective. What is top talent? I consider Robert Teranishi's sketch cards to be some of the best in the industry, yet they sadly don't command as much as they should on the secondary market.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:14 PM   #132 (permalink)
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There is one simple objective criteria in this particular genre: Sales prices.

Usually, the top talent sells for more. The collectors have been very good at identifying the skilled line and raising the prices by fighting each other for the chance to own it.
This is very true but many revolutionary artists were overlooked and identified as 'fringe' during their day, correct? Did not Vincent van Gogh die penniless with most of his art largely unappreciated during his time? It's a sad fact in the art and music worlds but if you kill someone their art is suddenly worth much much more. It's as if their own personal view of the world is a special unique lens and now that lens is cracked and shattered and now all the images that were taken through that lens have an ever ascending value.

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Warhol and modern art don't really come into play, since 99.9% of the skech cards are actual drawings and paintings - not prints or stencils.
So you're right and that was a terrible example. Um, I will try a different analogy that I know much about but which I haven't seen on sketch cards (to avoid a flamewar). I like tessellations so let's say an artist made a tessellation of Boba Fett's helmet and Han Solo's face. Now, you might say yeah that's great but school children make tessellations in geometry class. Or perhaps comment that it's just the same image over and over again. Or perhaps the 1930's called and they want their trick back. Or perhaps some MC Escher joke. But you know a guy who writes code might think that's perfect art for his office and pay whatever they ask for it. Does it mean it was "great" art? No, not really. It spoke to someone though and really I think that's more important than trying to be Sketch Card #1 with no one else better than my optimum art. I see sketch cards that have Star Wars characters done in an almost Precious Moments style and do I rip them apart for turning warriors into childish paraphernalia? No, that could be someone else's tastes and I can't draw that well so I just leave everyone else to their tastes. Doesn't do a whole lot for me to go around telling people why their taste in art sucks and mine is so much better and requires so much more skill.

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Your opinion was very well reasoned and written even if I disagree slightly. You make lots of good points. Thanks!
Thanks yeah, I'm not trying to start a flamewar (I post a lot on Slashdot and get enough of that over there) but I do think that artists largely get the shaft. Only the top 1% of them make all the bank and when copyright law appears to benefit them, it's always some megacorporation ending up with the dough anyway. On and on and on I could list out why not to be an artist so I cherish anyone who's engaged in that labor of love and can find something good in most pieces of art. In these forums, you actually get to interact with the artists! Why waste that on negative words?! Where else do you get this level of interaction? I'm some no talent ass clown, why would I scare them off of these boards with Simon Cowell criticism or any criticism at all?
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:15 PM   #133 (permalink)
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But your second comment makes it subjective. What is top talent? I consider Robert Teranishi's sketch cards to be some of the best in the industry, yet they sadly don't command as much as they should on the secondary market.
For sure there is no way to make it fully objective. But, in college especially, students learn criteria and are exposed to a host of identifiable qualities that make drawings and paintings more or less successful. In the case of "top sketch card talent", I personally look for a confident line that creates an edgy original feeling within the image. That is still very subjective, but it is the guideline I use.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #134 (permalink)
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But your second comment makes it subjective. What is top talent? I consider Robert Teranishi's sketch cards to be some of the best in the industry, yet they sadly don't command as much as they should on the secondary market.
Top talent thinks outside of the box. Not afraid to do their own thing.

Robert Teranishi
John Sokup
That Dastick fellow

Just to name a few.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:21 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eldavojohn View Post
In these forums, you actually get to interact with the artists! Why waste that on negative words?! Where else do you get this level of interaction? ... why would I scare them off of these boards with Simon Cowell criticism or any criticism at all?
There is no Simon Cowell criticism. I don't see where you got that idea.

Mostly, collectors and commentors are very nice to the artists.

All I am saying is this: Some artists get really defensive at the drop of a hat. They cannot stand any suggestions. They often lash out against the successful artists. If they spent the same energy studying and improving rather than defending against perceived slights, they would get better as artists.

Your tessellation example still misses the mark, in my opinion. One tessellation could be done very skillfully with a unique high-quality line and style, while another could be average.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:36 PM   #136 (permalink)
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For sure there is no way to make it fully objective. But, in college especially, students learn criteria and are exposed to a host of identifiable qualities that make drawings and paintings more or less successful. In the case of "top sketch card talent", I personally look for a confident line that creates an edgy original feeling within the image. That is still very subjective, but it is the guideline I use.
There is also a sense of balance, proportion, and unity that can be found in a successful card. And, since the sketches are characters, the faces have to look natural and comfortable. It is so easy to draw an awkward facial expression on such a tiny canvas.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:48 PM   #137 (permalink)
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And then, of course, there is the star power thing. Once an artist is recognized for their skill and talent and collectors start to fight to own their cards, their work takes on a life of its own and like sports cards the stars shine brighter within the hobby.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:19 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Not sure what you are asking, but if it's about AP prices, well it goes this way from what I can tell. We get paid buttkiss for our inserts so the company can make money and we artists can have a venue to sell our own art as PSC's.
So my question is about AP prices. Not specifically about yours or any individual artist, just the artist mindset on the rate an artist requests for an licensed AP card. Again, I stress that no personal offense is intended and I'm just asking out of my own curiosity. Feel free not to answer if you don't want to. And personally I'm happy to hear the opinion of any of the artists contributing to this thread (ehh hmmmm... Ted...)

I've said it many times. I'd rather buy an AP card from the artist than buy one of that artist's sketches from a dealer. I feel your plight and I know the APs are how the artists gets most of his/her pay. However, it seems like AP prices are all over the map. I've gotten rates from some well credentialed artists (have done many sets like yourself) whose set cards go for like $100+ on eBay and they ask for like $100-$150 for an AP card. On the other hand, I have also gotten rates from less credentialed artists whose set cards sell for $10-25 on eBay and they are asking $100+ for an AP. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to pay 3x or more for an AP card. I'm happy to pay a premium (like say 25%) more for an AP.

Have never requested a rate from an artist who's set cards sell for $150+ on a regular basis. I just assume they have no APs available and that I couldn't afford one anyway

I guess the short version of my questions is, "Is there a sense in the artist community that you are entitled to $100+ for an AP card regardless of your credentials?"

The way I figure, the mindset should be "when I'm young and less credentialed, I ask XXX (say $50, if set cards are selling for $25-35) and if my APs sell well I'll increase my price as I gain experience and refine my skillset." Maybe there will be the occasional young inexperienced artist who's work is instantly highly sought after and they can command premium commission rates very quickly, but that demand will show in their set card resale value also. And obviously, an experience Marvel comic book artist is going to demand a premium for his/her AP cards right off the bat.

Am I crazy? I work as a chemist, and my pay increases and salary grade promotions are based on accomplishments and job performance. Supply and demand aside, shouldn't an artist base his/her commission rates on experience and credentials?
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:27 PM   #139 (permalink)
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I've heard NAR opine about this a little that he only will increase AP prices because he wants the past APs he's done to retain their value. He said he feels he owes that to the collectors out there who've supported him in the past.

I guess you could say that's a convenient position for him to take, but I think he has a good point there.

So that may be involved in the pricing for some artists as well.

Just for Premier, I've paid as little as $40 and as much as $250 for APs. It honestly doesn't bother me--if I don't think the artist's work is worth the price they're asking, I'll just pass.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #140 (permalink)
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if I don't think the artist's work is worth the price they're asking, I'll just pass.
And of course I do the same. And I don't question their price. But since I'm in a forum here with several artists I have never attempted to commission (ted, jay, justin) I figured why not throw the question out there?

What I can say is that the artists asking a price several orders of magnitude higher than their set cards are selling for seem to be younger less experienced artists. The artists that have done AP commissions for me in the range of $40-100 are all professional artists that make a living doing art, whether it be illustrating books or doing story boards, art is what they do.

I have to keep my commissions within my budget, so when an artist tells me $150 I'm usually out whether I think they deserve it or not Anyway, who cares what I think an artist deserves? I'm no connoisseur!
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:53 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Heh, If a person can get another person to buy 5 dollars worth of excrement for 100 bucks, why not. My price is strictly based on a per hour rate and how much productive time on my own stuff I would lose if I was doing an 8 hour AP. Since I can't really spare time to do 8 -12 hour AP's anymore, I offer none. I just draw whatever I want on em when I have a few hours and toss em on feebay.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:24 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Top talent thinks outside of the box. Not afraid to do their own thing.

Robert Teranishi
John Sokup
That Dastick fellow

Just to name a few.
Also love John's work (he's a good guy, too, was glad to do a couple jams with him on the last Star Wars Galaxy set). But he's a prime example of what we're talking about. He first hit the scene with a radically different style, the early reviews were rough. But then something happened where people finally "got it" and now his work is very much sought after.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:36 AM   #143 (permalink)
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And of course I do the same. And I don't question their price. But since I'm in a forum here with several artists I have never attempted to commission (ted, jay, justin) I figured why not throw the question out there?
Never hurts to ask.

I feel the same way, though. Brian Rood had mentioned he was entertaining offers on some of his original pieces and I knew there was no way I'd be able to afford them, but I inquired anyway. You never know, there are times where you might end up with a price you like.

What bothers me is when artists say "PM or email me for prices." If you're looking to sell something, just put a price on it. Why the secrecy? Are they holding out for a better offer? It's like when I go to shows and sellers have their merchandise on the table... but no prices. I generally just move on. Sometimes when you ask, the seller takes a moment to think about it. You're telling me that you had NO idea what you wanted for that piece when you put it out for sale? Just be honest, don't size me up and try to figure the max I might be able to pay. Put a price on it, and if I can't afford it I'll either ask for a lower price or they can just sell it to the next guy who CAN afford it. It doesn't mean the price is high, but there are lots of things in life that certain folks just can't afford, like that private island I've been eying up. Doesn't make it a bad thing.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:50 AM   #144 (permalink)
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It's like when I go to shows and sellers have their merchandise on the table... but no prices. I generally just move on. Sometimes when you ask, the seller takes a moment to think about it. You're telling me that you had NO idea what you wanted for that piece when you put it out for sale? Just be honest, don't size me up and try to figure the max I might be able to pay. Put a price on it, and if I can't afford it I'll either ask for a lower price or they can just sell it to the next guy who CAN afford it. It doesn't mean the price is high, but there are lots of things in life that certain folks just can't afford, like that private island I've been eying up. Doesn't make it a bad thing.
I used to feel the exact same way, and it still aggravates me when I don't see prices on stuff. . . that said I've set up at a couple of shows trying to thin the collection a bit and pricing cards is really a no-win situation. . .

The problem is that a certain percentage of people are going to ask you to discount your price no matter what an item is marked. Other people don't like to haggle and will either pay what you are asking or walk away. I haven't figured out a way to mark items that works for the seller as well as both of those parties. If you price an item with some haggle room you'll lose a lot of the people who won't haggle, and if you price at your rock bottom price you don't have any ability to haggle with the other folks. . .

I have figured out if you price things with a built in quantity discount it seems to appease both parties, however that only works for similar items, once you get into sketches and autographs doing that becomes tougher.

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Old 12-11-2012, 09:53 AM   #145 (permalink)
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That example obviously doesn't fit the mold, that just sounds like an artist with a chip on their shoulder. Bad on her, she lost a potential customer.
Actually, while my example was probably the biggest head scratcher I've encountered similar stuff always happens. . . People ask for feedback, and you give them feedback, and they get hung up on a few words or a single sentence out of a 300 word post that triggers them into getting really upset or defensive. . .

Most of the encounters I've seen with people trying to give feedback, even very gently end up going down that path. . .
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:55 AM   #146 (permalink)
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I used to feel the exact same way, and it still aggravates me when I don't see prices on stuff. . . that said I've set up at a couple of shows trying to thin the collection a bit and pricing cards is really a no-win situation. . .

The problem is that a certain percentage of people are going to ask you to discount your price no matter what an item is marked. Other people don't like to haggle and will either pay what you are asking or walk away. I haven't figured out a way to mark items that works for the seller as well as both of those parties. If you price an item with some haggle room you'll lose a lot of the people who won't haggle, and if you price at your rock bottom price you don't have any ability to haggle with the other folks. . .

I have figured out if you price things with a built in quantity discount it seems to appease both parties, however that only works for similar items, once you get into sketches and autographs doing that becomes tougher.

Jon
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Actually, while my example was probably the biggest head scratcher I've encountered similar stuff always happens. . . People ask for feedback, and you give them feedback, and they get hung up on a few words or a single sentence out of a 300 word post that triggers them into getting really upset or defensive. . .

Most of the encounters I've seen with people trying to give feedback, even very gently end up going down that path. . .
I honestly think this was the biggest destroyer of the Scoundrel community over the past two years, although the Gooney Toons Beau Gas thing was a pretty big bummer too.

Again, the worst part for me is when artists actually get upset because collectors are praising other artists. That's just sad.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:13 AM   #148 (permalink)
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I honestly think this was the biggest destroyer of the Scoundrel community over the past two years, although the Gooney Toons Beau Gas thing was a pretty big bummer too.

Again, the worst part for me is when artists actually get upset because collectors are praising other artists. That's just sad.
I was starting to feel like I was on Scoundrel...

I never heard of the Gooney Toons Beau Gas thing - cliff notes?
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:48 AM   #149 (permalink)
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I never heard of the Gooney Toons Beau Gas thing - cliff notes?
When Gooney was real popular and his cards were red hot, he had an idea for a prank/performance piece. He created an alter ego and a new style, calling it Beau Gas. He sent free PSC sketch cards with one letter of the fake name to all the collectors on his mailing list as a mystery to see how long it would take the community to figure it out. A few collectors got really upset that someone had their home address and they went ballistic until he had to spill the beans early. It was a crazy disaster that eventually helped make him decide to leave the genre and go into tattooing and clothing design full time.

Here are some of the cards, he continued the style into the next official set:

SketchCollectors.com: Everything Sketch Cards

It was a very cool project, but it caused a massive firestorm that hurt lots of feelings.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:04 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Wow, that's actually pretty interesting. I liked his style in in Marvel 70th? It seemed like I didn't hear much about him after that - and then he did a few cards in Captain America.

Very interesting back story behind the alter ego though.
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