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Old 01-30-2013, 05:29 PM   #276 (permalink)
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This is not speaking, it's written text. No need to continually rewrite what has already been written. If it continues then it's just purposely being done to get under peoples skin.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:01 PM   #277 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
There seems to be 3 sides here:
1) It isn't right to erase a sketch. The artists are only doing what the company is paying them to do. Afterall, it's just a "sketch".
2) The company needs to be held accountable and there are artists who should be ashamed of themselves for doing such poor quality work.
3) If you payed for the card, you should be able to do what you want with it. Including but not limited to, altering the sketch with or without the intent to resell.
I don't think it boils down quite so nicely. . . In fact I personally agree with parts of all three sides. . .

I don't agree with people altering or erasing sketches -- I wouldn't do it.

I also think the company should be held accountable for what is in a pack -- and yes there are some sketches out there that do not look like the artist should be proud of them. . .

While it frustrates me when people do things like erase sketches it is their property to do with what they want (as long as it's not misrepresented).
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:06 PM   #278 (permalink)
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I don't think it boils down quite so nicely. . . In fact I personally agree with parts of all three sides. . .

I don't agree with people altering or erasing sketches -- I wouldn't do it.

I also think the company should be held accountable for what is in a pack -- and yes there are some sketches out there that do not look like the artist should be proud of them. . .

While it frustrates me when people do things like erase sketches it is their property to do with what they want (as long as it's not misrepresented).
I tried to type something like this out (probably 3 times) - however I ket deleting it because it just sounded like crap. However, you worded much nicer than I ever could.

I agree 100%
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:26 PM   #279 (permalink)
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I don't think it boils down quite so nicely. . .
Those are just 3 different views i've noticed in the thread. I think it's very reasonable to accept more than one, or even all three.. to a certain extent.

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I don't agree with people altering or erasing sketches -- I wouldn't do it.

I also think the company should be held accountable for what is in a pack -- and yes there are some sketches out there that do not look like the artist should be proud of them. . .

While it frustrates me when people do things like erase sketches it is their property to do with what they want (as long as it's not misrepresented).
For the most part, I agree.

It doesn't frustrate me when I hear about someone erasing a sketch like that. I can understand their want. Though, I do agree it is in bad taste.

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Originally Posted by Zerokruel View Post
I tried to type something like this out (probably 3 times) - however I ket deleting it because it just sounded like crap. However, you worded much nicer than I ever could.
If all else fails, just do what I do.. edit if you are unsure. Who cares if you need to revise something.

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This is not speaking, it's written text. No need to continually rewrite what has already been written. If it continues then it's just purposely being done to get under peoples skin.
Under your skin? I hope you aren't upset about what has been said in this thread?

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:21 PM   #280 (permalink)
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. . . In fact I personally agree with parts of all three sides. . .
As do I... for better or for worse.

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I hope you aren't upset about what has been said in this thread?
I think Roy, Rusty, Jason, Lak, and every other artists that read this thread should be appalled by much of what was written. Many posts were filled with what I considered to be flat out slander, some of which was authored by members which later stated they were either (1) not sketch card collectors or (2) just people on the internet saying stupid things because they had nothing better to do.

Read this thread from start to finish, putting yourself in their shoes, and tell me you are not offended.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:46 PM   #281 (permalink)
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As do I... for better or for worse.



I think Roy, Rusty, Jason, Lak, and every other artists that read this thread should be appalled by much of what was written. Many posts were filled with what I considered to be flat out slander, some of which was authored by members which later stated they were either (1) not sketch card collectors or (2) just people on the internet saying stupid things because they had nothing better to do.

Read this thread from start to finish, putting yourself in their shoes, and tell me you are not offended.
Appalled? really?

Wipe your nose off, it stinks.

If these artist are getting butthurt over the opinions of others.. if they can't take criticism, then they're in the wrong line of work. Why beat around the bush?

Slander? I've read posts where people state they simply do not agree with someone else. I've seen a couple trolls, plenty of sarcasm, and a few people arguing semantics.

No, I wouldn't be offended. I used to draw and paint. If I took a job for a card company, i'd treat it as a long term investment. A lack of pay wouldn't justify terrible work, since I am not doing it for the low pay. I certainly would make an honest attempt to produce quality work. What may be considered as "good enough" by the card companies, may not be considered consciously good enough by most artists. Just saying.

Should the consumers on the receiving end of these napkin doodlings be appalled? Pretty strong word. Disappointed is more like it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:39 PM   #282 (permalink)
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NOTICE FOR ALL SKETCH CARD NEWBIES (and anyone else busting wax):

While opening boxes/cases of non-sport cards will most likely be more fun and more profitable than opening simillarly priced sports card products, YOU ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET SOMETHING THAT WILL SELL FOR BOX PRICE OR MORE any more than you are from a box of of sports product. ALL sets that include sketches as the main "hit" will have pieces that will sell for a small percentage of the MSRP ans a scant few that could possibly pay for your entire case. Continual whining about how a "hit" is inferior because you can not make a car/rent payment only serves to make you look like an asshat. If you are going to play the game, abide by "big boy rules". It's like going to the casino...don't play if you can't afford to lose!


To the artists that have been kind enough to participate in this thread and help to educate those who care to read your point of view...thank you!
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:54 PM   #283 (permalink)
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Ye gods, I wish this damn thing would be locked already.

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Originally Posted by Igman7 View Post
While opening boxes/cases of non-sport cards will most likely be more fun and more profitable than opening simillarly priced sports card products, YOU ARE NOT GUARANTEED TO GET SOMETHING THAT WILL SELL FOR BOX PRICE OR MORE any more than you are from a box of of sports product. ALL sets that include sketches as the main "hit" will have pieces that will sell for a small percentage of the MSRP ans a scant few that could possibly pay for your entire case. Continual whining about how a "hit" is inferior because you can not make a car/rent payment only serves to make you look like an asshat. If you are going to play the game, abide by "big boy rules". It's like going to the casino...don't play if you can't afford to lose!
I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested anything like this. Expecting a minimum amount of effort on the card is not remotely close to this characterization of what people who were blasting "The Sketch That Launched A Thousand Posts" were saying.

I get people feel strongly about this issue, but step one of a good discussion is to discard your strawman characterizations of the other side's position. Assume that everyone here is not an idiot and has arrived at their position through some sort of intellectual reflection.

This thread turned into a turd flinging fest when we started disrespecting each other's perceived mental capacity.

And with that, I'm out for good this time...
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:07 AM   #284 (permalink)
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Naw Takes way more than what has been said by anyone here or anywhere to get under my skin. I had already stated that these kinds of discussions always wind up being an us against them thing.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:14 PM   #285 (permalink)
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Disclaimer- I am just posting this comment for Amber Shelton as she has joined the forum but for some reason still cannot post replies. She asked me to post this for her.



"Heya. Amber Shelton here…
Sorry to restart the thread, but I’ve been following it and finally gave in to my need to post a BOOK. Unfortunately, I signed up to post on Tuesday and am still not approved so I had to find someone to post for me!

Over the last few years I’ve seen a lot of “the artists should have more pride than in their work” and “it’s the artist’s reputation on the line” and “how do they expect to move up or on to comics or sell APs if they hand in crap”, ad infinitum. In this thread someone asked if the cards lacking effort annoyed the artists. My answer is “no”. There are plenty of artists who put just as little effort into their cards – but with more skill – who the collectors love and THOSE are the ones that get to me on occasion. I often find myself thinking how much I’d love it if I could manage a style that made me money for so little time invested. Because, see, all the opinions in that first sentence boil down to the collectors thinking there’s some kind of reward system for good behavior… and there just isn’t. You can very well put in multiple hours of work on cards and see nothing for it. There are NO “A”s for effort in this hobby. Maybe people don’t talk crap about you or your art (regularly) but they don’t talk about you at all. They go straight from “this effort sucked” to “the effort’s okay but it’s not my style” without any room for props at all. You’re nameless photo dump fodder for “okay” cases and don’t sell APs unless you’re willing to sell them at crazy stupid prices - not because your art’s not good enough for more money but because past a certain price point everyone would rather save up for a more popular artist. Artists are gambling every bit as much as those breaking the boxes, and we’re doing it more stupidly because after a certain amount of time in the game you can see that an artist’s “luck” (popularity, rewards, etc.) isn’t going to change.

Which leads me to the next point - “don’t they know collectors only buy boxes for the sketches”. I’ve been told this, yes. Just as artists have told collectors how much they get paid. It’s a common back and forth, but I never see anyone draw the parallels. Collectors might be sympathetic to artists making so little but they don’t alter their practices because of the fact, right? Well, to be honest, I’m sympathetic with box breakers but I don’t base my level of effort (or character choices, or much else anymore (sorry)) on the fact that you’re gambling on your box. You’re just in luck that I have other reasons for not phoning in sets. THAT annoys me, actually, that I can’t let myself spend less time on a card that will inevitably get thrown on eBay for less than the cost of a box anyway simply because I’m me.

I also think that it’s ironic when people say that the card companies SHOULD police the art but they don’t so the artists should police themselves. I think it’s just as easy to say that card companies SHOULD police the art but they don’t so the breakers should police themselves. That’s a lot of blame placing, either way. Both sides are making choices. The idea of a completely blameless flipper doesn’t sit well with me, they need to take some responsibility for what they do with their money. The thing about gambling is that it’s risk vs. reward. You figure your odds and a good gambler takes into account the fact that they’re going to hit some losses. That’s a profit deduction, just like fees and shipping. If there was absolutely no risk then your payoff would inevitably suffer in other ways - like people buying their own boxes instead of cherrypicking “good” art on the ‘bay, perhaps. As an aside, I have a feeling that companies like Lucasfilm only have lawyers checking to make sure the characters belong to them and aren’t doing anything objectionable, etc. and don’t have a review for actual artistic integrity. I could be wrong, though.

As for the specific issue of the erased card… I don’t think that we need God back in schools, I think we just need to start teaching our children morality, ethics and empathy again. I think the erasing of a card shows a lack of all of those plus a huge helping of entitlement. Just because you lost one round doesn’t mean you get free reign to change the rules. No one from any aspect of the industry is that special and it would be nice if the industry policed against it (aka, collectors don’t buy the card and artists don’t draw on it) so that instead of a cynically priced $1.50 card it’s now a $0 card because no one will touch it. Arguments on the art aside, the companies never intended for blanks to be sold and you’d think that’d be enough for someone to respect ethically.

Addressing common sentiment on “dud pulls” from another angle, if an artist (rather than a company) owes a breaker a flippable card – what does that breaker (rather than the company) owe the artist? Collectors, too, in this theoretical question. You know the artists don’t get paid well, you aren’t buying the majority’s APs to support them specifically, what IS the return directly from you to them?

I truly believe this is why there is such turnover in artists. Because the whole arrangement can easily feel very parasitic to those of us who can’t make the A List. Sure, artists should draw for their love of the craft (gag, but that’s another subject entirely) but musicians play for the love and still aren’t looked down on for “feeding off the crowd” at concerts. Simple feedback can skew the relationship toward symbiotic. …But every time I bring up that suggestion everyone gets bent. My feeling is, if you think it’s too much time and effort to comment, praise, or even show your respect for artists with nothing tangible in it for you… I’ve got a few sketch cards you can finish for me instead?
*off soapbox*"
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:43 PM   #286 (permalink)
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Is it getting warm in here?
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:47 PM   #287 (permalink)
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Hi Amber, glad to see you've signed up here, and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

Even though it took me a few minutes to read all you had to say it was a good read, and an excellent point of view from an artist's perspective. I hope people will notice that you can present your point of view, support it with facts or examples, and not be insulting or inflammatory, and your words will carry a lot more weight (at least with me they will).

I can't argue with anything you've said. I've never complained directly to a company on what I might view as a bad product with too many subpar sketches (and I haven't complimented them on good ones either), and now I think I should. I have shown my displeasure with some products by refusing to buy them until they drop in price enough to make them a good buy, but that doesn't really affect the company or let them know I wasn't happy with the product at the original price, since they already sold everything to their distributors and most likely don't pay too much attention to the secondary market. I have also bought very few AP's, so I am not supporting the artists I like directly, but I should. I guess I like gambling too much, I don't buy many singles at all, I would rather open up more product and see what I pull next.

I will say that the sketches I've seen over the past 6 months from you (from Cryptids, DC The New 52, and Batman The Legend) have all been excellent. Unfortunately I haven't pulled any of your sketches, but that's something I have to look forward to, pulling a sketch by you. Thank you for caring about the quality of your work, and keep up the great work!
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:14 PM   #288 (permalink)
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With all due respect, there is a HUGE sense of entitlement in the sketch artist community. As in "I am an artist, and I am entitled to unquestioning respect no matter how bad my art looks." As in, "There are a bunch of favorite artists, and I deserve to be on that list no matter what I produce."

I get so tired of that. The sketch card industry has created a whole class of artist who cannot handle the slightest bit of criticism, and who cannot identify outstanding work. It is such a shame.

Criticism is the basis of Art Education. I teach my students, starting at second grade, to be able to identify successful art and talk about it. Anyone who ever took a single Art class in college knows that critiques are the cornerstone of advanced understanding of Fine Art.

But no, in the sketch art world you are not allowed to say ANYTHING about the quality and success of the artwork you collect... OR ELSE.

It is such a shame. Such a sense of entitlement. Such a deterrent to progress. Unless we can critique the work and identifiy the successful sketches, we will be stuck with inferior work.

And it seems there are many artists who want to keep it like that.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:02 PM   #289 (permalink)
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Again, just posting for Amber Shelton:

"Rian,

With all due respect, your opinion is just that.

I hate penis measuring, but I also hate how often we get talked down to as if, as sketch artists, we’re all high school dropouts expecting to be the next Big Thing just for putting pen to paper. So.

Hi, we’ve never spoken. I’m Amber Shelton. My mother taught elementary school for 35 years, art included. She believed the best way to grow artistically is to have a supportive, creative, environment and I favor her school of thought. I have two business degrees, a liberal art degree and I went to art school for two years – Center (now College) for Creative Studies in Detroit, Michigan. I don’t know if you heard of it, but it’s a top 25 art school with the automotive industry’s money behind it. I had a 3.8 GPA there and only left without my Illustration degree due to lack of funds.

I think, then, you will understand that I have some experience with critiques when I tell you that what sketch artists get on these boards is absolutely nothing like a constructive learning tool.

And if entitlement is all you got out of my post, then I leave you to that and hope to continue actual discourse with others."
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #290 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AsylumStudios View Post
I also hate how often we get talked down to as if, as sketch artists, we’re all high school dropouts expecting to be the next Big Thing just for putting pen to paper.
I'm sorry if it hurts, but that is the way many sketch artists act on the forums. And we have to hear it every single time someone offers any sort of critique at all. If you really hate it, make sure you don't act like that yourself.

If you could look at the situation objectively, you would see it.

Getting a job doing sketch cards does nothing to guarantee quality, yet it seems to give people license to get really upset anytime anyone says anything about the quality of the cards.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #291 (permalink)
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I'm entitled to be f'n awesome up in this piece
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:31 PM   #292 (permalink)
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I'm entitled to be f'n awesome up in this piece
Amen brother Frank!

I wish more artists had that attitude. Instead, they start whining as soon as anyone has any sort of critique about any card.

Dear Sketch Artists,

Buck up and feel good about your own work. If a collector says something not totally positive about a card, whether it is your card or not, learn from it. Study what they don't like, and make your own work better.

Then we can all live happily ever after.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:46 PM   #293 (permalink)
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Replying to this as "quote" isn't working for me:

"Heya. Amber Shelton here…

I often find myself thinking how much I’d love it if I could manage a style that made me money for so little time invested. You can very well put in multiple hours of work on cards and see nothing for it."
___

I agree with this greatly and feel your pain . I spend hours on each card I do and don't phone in any cards, but I'll sadly always be "average"... There's always a card or two from each set I'd like to burn , but I'm proud of the work I put in. I put probably 5 hours into all of my Walking Dead Season 2 sketches and I wish that I'd be a popular pull, but I'm not a Glebe, etc... I enjoy what I do and will keep doing it for that reason! AND I'D GLADLY DO WORK FOR TOPPS AND DO GREAT SKETCHES FOR $1.50! Hint Hint Wink Wink I look at sub-par sketches and think I wish I'd have been given the opportunity...

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Old 02-02-2013, 05:49 PM   #294 (permalink)
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Amen brother Frank!

I wish more artists had that attitude. Instead, they start whining as soon as anyone has any sort of critique about any card.

Dear Sketch Artists,

Buck up and feel good about your own work. If a collector says something not totally positive about a card, whether it is your card or not, learn from it. Study what they don't like, and make your own work better.

Then we can all live happily ever after.
I'm not much a fan of critics or critiques. I'm my own worst critic, always have been. I rarely ever ask for a critique on my work. If I do, its definitely by someone I trust, respect, or who has been a professional for a long time and knows what they're doing and saying...and not some internet tough guy
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:58 PM   #295 (permalink)
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I'm not much a fan of critics or critiques. I'm my own worst critic, always have been. I rarely ever ask for a critique on my work. If I do, its definitely by someone I trust, respect, or who has been a professional for a long time and knows what they're doing and saying...and not some internet tough guy.
Who cares where the critique comes from? If it can make you a better artist, it is valuable no matter who said it.

So many artists are so sensitive that they cannot be open to any form of critique. They get all jealous when another artist sells for more money. They lash out on the message boards every chance they get, because they are in so much pain from not having their work celebrated.

That is a harsh critique, I will admit, but it is very true for some people in this industry. It's too bad that the people who need to face it the most are the ones who refuse to accept the possibility.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:16 PM   #296 (permalink)
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Who cares where the critique comes from? If it can make you a better artist, it is valuable no matter who said it.

So many artists are so sensitive that they cannot be open to any form of critique. They get all jealous when another artist sells for more money. They lash out on the message boards every chance they get, because they are in so much pain from not having their work celebrated.

That is a harsh critique, I will admit, but it is very true for some people in this industry. It's too bad that the people who need to face it the most are the ones who refuse to accept the possibility.
Not all critiques are helpful and can make you a better artist...
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:43 PM   #297 (permalink)
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Not all critiques are helpful and can make you a better artist...
I disagree. We can learn from anything and everything, if we keep an open mind.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:45 PM   #298 (permalink)
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I disagree. We can learn from anything and everything, if we keep an open mind.
I agree we can learn from everything but I won't accept a critique from someone who thinks they know it all when they really don't.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:53 PM   #299 (permalink)
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Sigh. Once again, it looks like the thread is getting back on track, when we get another artist to chime in and advance the dialog, and then someone comes in and attacks them. Several times throughout this thread, that's been done by you, Rian. Each artist has their own opinion, you have yours, why can't you leave it at that?

It also amuses me that you say that most artists can't or won't take any constructive criticism. I've seen you offer lots of criticism here on BO, but very little of it has been constructive. I get that you've had issues with some artists on other boards in the past, but I would guess most of us here on BO don't know what it was about, and probably don't care. Most of us would just like to engage the artists and hear what their point of view is on different topics.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:20 PM   #300 (permalink)
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Sigh. Once again, it looks like the thread is getting back on track, when we get another artist to chime in and advance the dialog, and then someone comes in and attacks them. Several times throughout this thread, that's been done by you, Rian. Each artist has their own opinion, you have yours, why can't you leave it at that?

It also amuses me that you say that most artists can't or won't take any constructive criticism. I've seen you offer lots of criticism here on BO, but very little of it has been constructive. I get that you've had issues with some artists on other boards in the past, but I would guess most of us here on BO don't know what it was about, and probably don't care. Most of us would just like to engage the artists and hear what their point of view is on different topics.
See, I take your critique about my opinions and I learn from them. Thank you.

I could provide a detailed study of successful sketch cards vs. unsuccessful sketch cards. I could (and I have, even here on this site, probably in this thread) identify the qualities that make the most valuable sketch cards better than others. I don't want to do that, unfortunately, because the artists in this industry tend to be too sensitive and their feelings get hurt very easily.

If you want artists to provide their point of view on the forums, you need to praise them without any hint of critique.

You say I am "attacking them", but what you really mean is I am not praising them. That tends to be the perspective when it comes to these subjects. The only opinions that are deemed acceptable are the strictly positive ones.

That is not honest. That will keep the industry stuck in the same state. Unless we can talk about improvements without being accused of attack, then we are nothing more than a circle jerk.

I am giving constructive criticism, whether you recognize it or not. Here are my suggestions to the artists:

1. Stop being so defensive. If you like your art, don't let anyone bring you down. If you want to improve, be open minded about how you could improve.

2. Study the artists who create cards that sell for more money and see if you can identify the characteristics in their work that are most successful. Ask collectors like fboothiii and FeedtheLion on Scoundrel what they look for in a card, and why they picked the cards they did to spend hundreds of dollars on. Study art appreciation sources and see if you can apply academic concepts to your work in sketch cards.

3. Start a thread here or on Scoundrel and call a truce, asking for honest constructive criticism. Remember #1 on this list, and let collectors tell you honestly what they think without accusing them of attacking.

4. Enjoy yourself. Do your art for fun, not for anything else. This could make you a better artist, and it will definitely make you a happier person.

There. Those are constructive, and they can help anyone having problems with these issues. I would love to do a detailed study of the most successful artists in this industry, but I don't want to ruffle any more feathers than I already have. I started my blog at sketchcardsaloon.com in an attempt to showcase the best work in this genre, so that is one place to see which cards are most successful in my opinion. I see that site as a gallery, with me as the curator. It has been big fun, although I was much more active there in the past than I have been lately.

Good luck to all.
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Last edited by Rian Fike; 02-02-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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