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Old 01-24-2013, 09:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Good discussion, everyone. I think some great points have been raised.

Ronin: I know of at least 2 cards in your group that some people may take issue with Seriously, I think there's a difference between a minimalist style (like Katie Cook has) and a lack of skill or effort.

G4RY: I wouldn't presume to understand the minds of artists, but your 2 points seem like where I would be coming from if I was in this line of work. Your reputation is everything and if you are putting out less than stellar sketches, that reputation will suffer.

Look at how some opinions are turning on some of the "upper tier" artists who have done some recent work that is not quite as awesome as what they've done in the past. I think it would be naive to think that effect on their reputation will not have an impact on their commissions or what they can get for them.

Also, I really appreciate the effort you put into your packed out cards--in the group you posted, I honestly couldn't tell you which one was the AP. That's a great approach IMO.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:03 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by webjon View Post
If the buyers don't like it they need to make that clear to Topps, which so far they've been unwilling to do.
Perhaps card companies need to get their shiit together and start listening to cosumer feedback.

As far as integrity, said company has already flushed that down the toilet when they greenlight such sketches to grace their sets.

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Good discussion, everyone. I think some great points have been raised.

Ronin: I know of at least 2 cards in your group that some people may take issue with Seriously, I think there's a difference between a minimalist style (like Katie Cook has) and a lack of skill or effort.
I knew the two you were referring to immidiately.

Minimalist they may be, it's just not for me. I just feel like they lack detail and the artist doesn't put much effort into them, because of the style. Maybe I'm biased because I am not a fan of my little pony. Anywho, people should be honest and that's my opinion. If a sketch is going to cost so damn much, i'd just expent more time spent and detailing.

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Old 01-24-2013, 09:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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There are well known "big time" (their words) artists who have stated that they will only do sketch cards in a quick style from set XX and on.

Should they be allowed on future sets?
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Igman7, while our opinions may differ, I still respect yours.

We need to reconcile and all the mushy stuff that goes along with it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:21 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jadams View Post
There are well known "big time" (their words) artists who have stated that they will only do sketch cards in a quick style from set XX and on.

Should they be allowed on future sets?
What was their reasoning? Was this due to the time/pay situation for the official cards or other reasons?

If I ran a company putting out these products, obviously I want the big names to stick on the sell sheet and I'd probably take whatever they'll give me within reason.

As a collector, I'd rather have an excellent card by a lesser-known artist than a low-effort card by a top-tier artist.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Also, as an artist, I want to make sure that every single pack pulled card that I create and send out for packing, is of the same, or close to the same high quality that I would create an AP to be
Gary, I have been lucky enough to pull a couple of your sketch cards, and they were amazing. Thank you for putting so much effort into your cards!

I'm pretty sure I've seen you post your cards for some sets on Scoundrel Art, and then asked people which ones should be your returns. So that definitely tells me that you are putting as much work into your regular cards as your returns!

ps - just saw the sample sketches of yours from Viceroy's Space set, and I can't wait to see the rest!
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:28 PM   #32 (permalink)
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This is bringing back memories from 2004, there were furious arguments from both pro and con camps on several forums, threads were hundreds of posts long. There were a handful of artists who were quite angry that some collector were saying it was wrong and threatening their income, but when the next set came out it was clear several artists intentionally drew very faint pencil sketches that could be even more easily erased or drawn over, it was really bad and really obvious, I can't recall if it was Star Wars Heritage or Revenge of the Sith, although I believe those were the last sets with widespread After Markets before the crackdown.

Some even had before and after shots:


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Old 01-24-2013, 09:46 PM   #33 (permalink)
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if an artist does not like there work erased maybe just maybe......
they should put a little more effort into it and instead of aa 30 second sketch ad 30 seconds of inking to it
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:54 PM   #34 (permalink)
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The only artist I've been tempted to do this with is "Shum".


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I hope no one ever gets "Shummed".
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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As an artist for the Star Wars sets, and many many others, I think I want to throw in my two cents.
That was worth at least a nickle in my book. Thank you. THANK YOU.

Some of my favorite pieces are pencil or ink only. Honestly, nothing beats a nice detailed pencil sketch in my book

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Old 01-24-2013, 10:54 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I've never considered erasing a sketch.
I'm torn between the arguments of "It's my property, I can do with it what I please." and the set integrity / license agreements.
Going down your list, Monkey;
1.) I have no sympathy for the box breaker that gets the pencil sketch you showed or any similar sketch (Woodside/Waterhouse). That's the risk you take buying a box.
2.) Couldn't agree with you more - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
3.) I wasn't around for the "After Market" sketch era, but I can understand a manufacturer having an issue with it. Now if an artist who wasn't licensed to be on a set erased someone's work and did their own on the stock, that would be a major issue in my opinion.
4) Yep, nothing else to say.
5) I don't think it's my place to judge "satisfactory effort".
6) I'm assuming they wanted to pack out one sketch per box. Without a few artists putting out 1000+ sketches, they couldn't hit those numbers. Reducing the print run may not be an option, and hiring a few dozen more artists might cause production delays.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:03 PM   #37 (permalink)
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5) I don't think it's my place to judge "satisfactory effort".
I understand--I couldn't really find the words to say just want I meant there. It's the difference between just not liking the card and being disappointed in the card. Like the card is not what it could have been. It feels incomplete/unfinished.

And to someone else's point, it's not the pencils that I have a problem with. I have some very nice sketches that are just pencils. A good sketch doesn't have to be in ink, but it does need to feel like it's finished.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
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3.) I wasn't around for the "After Market" sketch era, but I can understand a manufacturer having an issue with it. Now if an artist who wasn't licensed to be on a set erased someone's work and did their own on the stock, that would be a major issue in my opinion.
That has definitely happened, I know 1 really big name that still does high quality pack inserted sketches to this day that did after markets while not an artist for the set.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:20 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I mean, look at Katie Cook's stuff...very popular, but very very simple.
Having owned a Clone Wars sketch of hers for all of 5 minutes, I can tell you some of her work is anything but simple.



I'll say what I said on the other site:
I guess once it's left the roost and found its way into collectors' hands, they can do whatever they want with their sketch cards - including erasing them and trying to re-sell that way.

It's up to artists to have some integrity and not purchase this to draw on.




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1. I understand the owner's frustration with that sketch in a product he paid $100 for. I think any of us who have opened wax for sketch cards have gotten some that are in this category.
It's a gamble. If you want to make sure you get sketches of a certain style or quality, just buy them on the secondary market. If you're looking for an investment, there are many other less-frustrating options in the world.

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5. I don't think a satisfactory effort was made by the artist when creating this card
Tell the company, and don't buy any more of their product that doesn't meet your standards.

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6. I don't understand why Topps would accept and pack out a card like this in a product that MSRP was ~$80 (that's what I read, anyway).
There were other things also in this set adding to the box value. Bottom line is Topps set their artist guidelines and we all followed them our own way. Don't blame the artist for doing what was asked of them, tell the company that commissioned and approved the artwork. If enough people speak up, they will react - it's happened before.



And regarding what Gary said, even my pencil sketches I make sure to sign in ink since crap like this happens.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:12 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I have nothing against pencil work, if it takes more then 30 seconds to sketch out. Seen a lot of pencil that I love.

I would just think as an artist you would at least try to put out work you are proud of, taking into consideration the time frame you have to complete the set.

If AP's are the bread and butter I would think putting solid sketches into products will drive up the AP's etc an artist is contacted to do.

I see that Akbar sketch, I would never try to have the artist do anything for me.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:31 AM   #41 (permalink)
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What was their reasoning? Was this due to the time/pay situation for the official cards or other reasons?

If I ran a company putting out these products, obviously I want the big names to stick on the sell sheet and I'd probably take whatever they'll give me within reason.

As a collector, I'd rather have an excellent card by a lesser-known artist than a low-effort card by a top-tier artist.
It's always about the money in the end.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:27 AM   #42 (permalink)
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When I pull sketches that bad, they usually just find their way to the shredder.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:07 AM   #43 (permalink)
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bronies love the cook
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:29 AM   #44 (permalink)
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maybe it's unethical, but if the sketch is that bad, you should be able to put in a claim to the company and they should allow you to erase it and re commission to have another sketch be put onto the card,
i hope your joking
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:30 AM   #45 (permalink)
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if yall dont like the fact that products have crappy sketches then why do yall buy them
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:33 AM   #46 (permalink)
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altering cards makes you a scammer..it is a crime
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:41 AM   #47 (permalink)
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i hope your joking
no good sir, infact i'm quite serious.

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if yall dont like the fact that products have crappy sketches then why do yall buy them
i hope you're joking.

not all the sketches are like the sketch in question. for the most part, i think this product is quality and lots of people who purchase this product are fans of star wars.

maybe i sound rediculous to you, but you sound fking crazy to me bro.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:45 AM   #48 (permalink)
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There were other things also in this set adding to the box value. Bottom line is Topps set their artist guidelines and we all followed them our own way. Don't blame the artist for doing what was asked of them, tell the company that commissioned and approved the artwork. If enough people speak up, they will react - it's happened before.
This....

IMO its on the company. Its gone on and been done long enough that collectors should know how Topps operates by now. It should only fool the new collectors.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:37 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I think the elephant in the room here is most sketches are not like this one. If they were, we'd not be surprised and disappointed to get sketches like it. It would be the norm and anything nicer would be a happy surprise.

So, while I appreciate the pressure and time constraints on the artists, as well as the minimal pay they receive for their work, the fact is that most artists had better work that this in the product.

At some point, you get to personal taste and preference. However, I think in this case, most of us can agree that at best this is an unfinished sketch in terms of the standards we'd expect from this product.

And given the info that Jason provided earlier, it's possible that's exactly what this card is. If artists weren't allowed to send back blanks and were under significant pressure to submit the full quote of sketches, the artist may have just had to send this one in.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:40 AM   #50 (permalink)
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if yall dont like the fact that products have crappy sketches then why do yall buy them
Just because a sports product has a lot of crap autos for hits, do you still buy it?

You bust wax for the chase--hoping to get that sketch masterpiece.

I think everyone knows that's unlikely, but I think the point here is the person who erased this sketch was not expecting the floor on possible sketches to be this low.

So, using sports as an example, when you pull that Mercedes Lewis auto from a 2012 Limited box, you're probably wondering "WTF is Mercedes Lewis doing in this product?"
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