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Old 01-25-2013, 08:43 AM   #51 (permalink)
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If you don't want your s#!t to be erased, don't use a pencil. I'd say if there is this much discussion about this card, the eraser has got what he wanted: attention.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:31 AM   #52 (permalink)
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If you don't want your s#!t to be erased, don't use a pencil. I'd say if there is this much discussion about this card, the eraser has got what he wanted: attention.
We have a winner! I agree 100%, and the dealer who erased this sketch is actually a great person. He accomplished what he wanted, he got everyone talking about inferior sketches and their impact.

Well done.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:43 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Well, I guess everyone wins.

No art for the latest Star Wars release from Topps.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:45 AM   #54 (permalink)
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If you don't want your s#!t to be erased, don't use a pencil.
Might as well erase some of Da Vinci or Rembrandt's works since they didn't have the foresight to use inks. What a bunch of dummies!

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:47 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Might as well erase some of Da Vinci or Rembrandt's works since they didn't have the foresight to use inks.
What set did they draw sketch cards for?

As if ANYONE in this game had that kind of skill. Pfft.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:54 AM   #56 (permalink)
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So, lets say you pulled this from a pack of trading cards from company X, would you be happy or sad? Would you paint over it or display it proudly?

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Old 01-25-2013, 09:59 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:00 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I wish I could figure out how to erase these cards that were spray painted with stencils that were cut from another artist's work, but the paint is permanent.

Oh well.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:03 AM   #59 (permalink)
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So, lets say you pulled this from a pack of trading cards from company X, would you be happy or sad? Would you paint over it or display it proudly?

that is non-sensical. The old argument that art is in the eye of the beholder only goes so far. The piece you just showed clearly took time, effort, and flair, whether it's someone's cup of tea or not. The Indy Jones waterhouse and woodside sketches, along with the "sketch" depicted in this thread, clearly took someone 30 seconds to do, could have been achieved by a six-year-old with no talent, and resemble zero amount of integrity or pride in one's work. While I don't agree with erasing anyone's "work," I also get a little tired of the "wounded artist" mindset that won't acknowledge bad work when they see it. It's like a fraternity that won't take accountability. Yes, topps is wrong for allowing it; yes, the person erasing it is wrong for defacing it (for profit no less); we can all agree to that. So why can't you agree like the rest of us that this sketch (the one erased) is a piece of crap?
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:06 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I also get a little tired of the "wounded artist" mindset that won't acknowledge bad work when they see it. It's like a fraternity that won't take accountability...

... why can't you agree like the rest of us that this sketch (the one erased) is a piece of crap?
Oh. My. God.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is a perfect statement of the situation and it needed to be said.

Thank you.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:08 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I wish I could figure out how to erase these cards that were spray painted with stencils that were cut from other artist's work, but the paint is permanent.

Oh well.

I wish you would shut the F up. I'm tired of your stupid games. You've followed me around the internet harassing me, and when pressed, you turn your passive aggressive nonsense dribble and play the victim card.

You have an issue with me? Drop me a line, we can work this out like adults. If you don't want to work this, out then leave me out of your pathetic attention seeking games. Got it? I thought we had this understanding from back when you told me you were going to have your lawyer contact me. Still waiting for that call. You want me to call him or her?

You know, for a school teacher you sure do waste a lot of time on the internet when you should be teaching.

For the very very very last time, stop harassing me. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:09 AM   #62 (permalink)
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found another gem from topps

i rather prefer the doodle in the bottom right hand corner over the sketch itself

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Old 01-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #63 (permalink)
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So why can't you agree like the rest of us that this sketch (the one erased) is a piece of crap?
You've confused me, do I get my own cup of tea or do I have to agree with everyone?
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:23 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by admiral_ackbar
It really is a trap!
Seriously, this has been a good discussion, let's not turn on each other.

I think we can all explain ourselves without getting personal.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:26 AM   #65 (permalink)
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It is not difficult to see the difference between a high level of skill and a low level of skill, but it takes practice and effort. People who cop out and defend low quality sketches are either too lazy to study the difference or in denial.

It is quite comical to me when I see low skilled artists defending low skilled sketches, but it happens all the time.

There are some collectors that know the difference, if you want to see high quality work you can study these:

SketchCollectors.com: Everything Sketch Cards

Yes, that collection contains Katie Cooks, and she is a good example of the difference a trained eye can make in evaluating artwork. Her cards are simple, and many others have tried to recreate her sense of whimsy and cuteness. Her line, however, is confident and skilled. It is easy to see the difference if you try.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:31 AM   #66 (permalink)
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What about this?

Thoughts?

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Old 01-25-2013, 10:32 AM   #67 (permalink)
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While I don't agree with erasing anyone's "work," I also get a little tired of the "wounded artist" mindset that won't acknowledge bad work when they see it. It's like a fraternity that won't take accountability. Yes, topps is wrong for allowing it; yes, the person erasing it is wrong for defacing it (for profit no less); we can all agree to that. So why can't you agree like the rest of us that this sketch (the one erased) is a piece of crap?
You want honesty from the fraternity? I don't like the original piece this thread is about. Does that mean it's a piece of crap? No. It's not what I like, but it was ok with the manufacturer. My issue is with them, not the artist.

I absolutely HATE Pablo Picasso (his later stuff, anyway) and Andy Warhol's work. When I go to art museums where their work is shown, I just skip those parts. If I have a real problem with my admission fee going towards filling the halls with that crap, I'll take it up with the curators and not pay another admission to return until they remove the offending work.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:04 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I wish I could figure out how to erase these cards that were spray painted with stencils that were cut from another artist's work, but the paint is permanent.

Oh well.
You're incredibly immature. Seriously. I'm barely on this board and I've seen you attack Jason's work multiple times. It's childish. I, for one, deeply enjoy Jason's work and seek out and buy it. There are plenty of artists' work I don't like. But I don't sit on a forum and act like a tough guy and bash their work. Please, grow up.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:07 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I absolutely HATE Pablo Picasso (his later stuff, anyway) and Andy Warhol's work. When I go to art museums where their work is shown, I just skip those parts.
This should be everyone's approach. I collect hockey cards as well. When I pull an autograph of a fourth line forward, do I sit around and yell and scream that he's so bad, why can't he get his act together and score some goals? No, it's pointless. I trade the card or sell the card so that hopefully someone who collects the player can have the card. Why are sketch cards any different? Collect what you want, trade the ones that you don't like or you feel are subpar and move on with your life. I'm pretty sure every artist has someone who collects their work somewhere.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:09 AM   #70 (permalink)
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But I don't sit on a forum and act like a tough guy...
hehe...

Tough guy calls me tough guy.

Yawn.

Two words, then I will drop it. "Swipe file".
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:10 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I absolutely HATE Pablo Picasso (his later stuff, anyway) and Andy Warhol's work. When I go to art museums where their work is shown, I just skip those parts. If I have a real problem with my admission fee going towards filling the halls with that crap, I'll take it up with the curators and not pay another admission to return until they remove the offending work.
I don't fancy Picasso either. I'm more into the Baroque period.. Rembrandt, Caravaggio etc you know, the good stuff
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:11 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Why are sketch cards any different? Collect what you want, trade the ones that you don't like or you feel are subpar and move on with your life. I'm pretty sure every artist has someone who collects their work somewhere.
And collectors like to talk about their hobby. No problem.

This has been a great discussion, and no one should be told to shut up about it. Art causes reactions, and people like to talk about their reactions.

No problem.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:17 AM   #73 (permalink)
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This should be everyone's approach. I collect hockey cards as well. When I pull an autograph of a fourth line forward, do I sit around and yell and scream that he's so bad, why can't he get his act together and score some goals? No, it's pointless. I trade the card or sell the card so that hopefully someone who collects the player can have the card. Why are sketch cards any different? Collect what you want, trade the ones that you don't like or you feel are subpar and move on with your life. I'm pretty sure every artist has someone who collects their work somewhere.
Well, that's positive thinking, but yeah cards like these, there is no trading them. I'd try to come up with a funny and clever "unless" situation, but I got nothing. They're just garbage. The artist is at fault, but mainly the company.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:22 AM   #74 (permalink)
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I like most art (I stop at the blank canvas stuff). I'm a big fan of Matisse, Picasso, and some other artists that many people aren't very into.

That Matisse sketch, for example, looks like it was done quickly but the lines are unreal on that thing.

I'm sure most of us know of the half-assed work that some artists like Picasso, Dali, and others did for cash grabs later in life. But they are still obviously the work of artists who knew what they were doing.

Like I said earlier, I can see in the original sketch that the artist is skilled. I think if you don't see that, you're letting the sketch itself overshadow that. My point was never that the artist was crap, it was that it was a poor sketch in terms of it being a final product.

We're never going to agree on artistic taste, but I think we can all agree that erasing sketches we don't care for is not really in the spirit of the hobby. Whatever the sketch's owners intentions were, I don't think it was really out of malice and was probably more of an impulse reaction to a card he did not like.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:27 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I absolutely HATE Pablo Picasso (his later stuff, anyway) and Andy Warhol's work. When I go to art museums where their work is shown, I just skip those parts. If I have a real problem with my admission fee going towards filling the halls with that crap, I'll take it up with the curators and not pay another admission to return until they remove the offending work.
I think a fundamental problem with this entire thread is that art is not a binary thing nor does it lend itself well to being a commodatized product. Art isn't just "good or bad" and if you express hate for something you should always take care to give it a point of view. Another thing I think we're missing is that you don't go to the Louvre to see 500 reproductions of the Mona Lisa. You go there to get a wide variety of types and quality of art and that makes the Mona Lisa so much more appreciative. When I see artist's studies series at a museum, I appreciate the formative sketches even though I would neither buy nor hang them on my walls at home.

To shift gears a bit here (and hopefully remove some vitriol), I hate Dave Matthews Band. Like I would probably try to kill myself with alcohol if I was trapped at a DMB concert. But I recognize them as technically very gifted musicians. And I can see how they would develop a very large and loyal following.

Similarly I thought I really hated Picasso's work as well. But when I looked at his early stuff when he was still figuring things out I really really liked it (example).

So I agree that the anger should be focused at the manufacturer of the set and the purchaser of the product (I know, that's not a popular viewpoint here). They're the ones that create this scenario. The manufacturer should be attacked for putting out contracts for, say, 500-1,000 sketches from one artist and expecting them to produce good art. Again, they should have some sort of quality control when they package a product that costs $100 with a sketch that took less than a minute from an artist who may or may not be a great artist but definitely has bills to pay. Something that amazes me is the consumer attitude here. Art is expensive and by buying these products you're kind of assuming the position as a patron of the arts. If you don't like what you're getting or you feel like a manufacturer is engaging in predatory practices then stop patronizing that manufacturer. Personally I see busting wax as gambling and, like gambling at a casino, the odds are against you. I do feel a little upset when you see product sheets from Topps that have amazing Kezeles and Proctors when 99% of the product might be minute sketches. Again, I think the focus should be on the manufacturer and consumer creating these scenarios. The consumers are creating a huge demand. It's impossible for me to tell what Topps' profit margins are so I can't comment on their efforts to keep up with demand. Are they having genuine problems finding artists to split this over or are they just trying to get as many sketches for as cheap as possible? I don't know, I'm not a part of that world. All we can do is observe and suspect.

So, back to the original point of this thread, I see this sort of thing along the lines of free speech. You bought the card, through the "wonders" of capitalism that card is now yours. You're free to do as you please with it. I could be a jerk and erase or burn or deface the one Kezele I own if I wanted to. That's your inalienable right and freedom to do what you want with your possessions. And, likewise, we're all free to call that morally reprehensible, disgusting, a shame, etc because we can say whatever we want (except on this forum where comments mysteriously disappear). Should it be illegal? No. Should Topps seek out those artists and blacklist them? If they so choose. I personally would never do it (hell, I think I own 10+ Howard Shums and am happy with them but I only pulled 2) but people should be free to do as they please with their possessions.

Lastly, why don't I see more kickstarters for small runs? I would totally dump money into one of those. If any artists read this far, why don't you team up with four other artists and put out "packs" on kickstarter? Is it a licensing problem with Marvel, Disney, etc? Have you signed contracts with your distributors not to do that?
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