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Old 01-26-2013, 02:19 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Incarnadine View Post
So, from the sounds of it you believe everything falls on the collector. The companies are just trying to make money and the artists are just doing their job.

Those things only go so far, and the collectors are the ones taking the biggest loss since the company does make it's money and the artists do the sketches and get paid (well, there are stories of artists not getting paid too).

I also agree that collectors should put the hammer down, cut back orders and contact the companies in significant numbers after a truly bad set is released.

I did stop supporting those companies, I sold off my collection and don't buy sketches, boxes or cases of sketch based products.
Trust me, if these were truly bad sets then they wouldnt be selling just like all the bad sets in history that never sold out
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:22 PM   #177 (permalink)
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no the GAMBLERS are taking the biggest loss, artwork is artwork and it doesnt matter how much YOU think its worth.
Sorry--I don't accept that someone doing the bare minimum is something a collector should be happy with pulling.

Yes, maybe you technically got what you were supposed to, but there's no reason we can't call out a crappy sketch card.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:28 PM   #178 (permalink)
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just look at what happen to Mastro for altering and misrepresentation, go to fbi.gov to read what they have to say about altering trading cards..and it is a crime

Bill Mastro and two partners indicted on fraud charges#@stemming from massive sports memorabilia scam, including altering famous Honus Wagner card#@ - NY Daily News
I'm failing to see the similarity here ... at all. The problem with the Honus Wagner alteration is that they were selling it as an unaltered Honus Wagner card. The whole purpose of erasing a sketch card is to fundamentally change it. Are you saying that the person had an $8 sketch card that they then altered to be worth ~$100 and then sold that for $100 under the guise of the original $8 sketch card? I mean, are they going to show a picture of the $8 card when they sell their reworked version?

Again, I'm not defending the actions, I merely fail to see how they are criminal. And, yes, I agree, the card's history should be made clear upon sale and resale etc.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:29 PM   #179 (permalink)
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Here's what the artist, Zack Giallongo, had to say via a member on Scoundrel:

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"Well, that's shitty. I don't know that I want to respond myself on the thread (mostly since there's not much I can do), but here's the reality of Sketch Cards:

We get paid $1.50 for each card we produce. Many of the sets have been suffering because it gets harder and harder to find enough artists who are willing to fill the demand for cards at such a low price. I have literally done THOUSANDS of cards and they can't all be winners. I was asked to produce FIVE HUNDRED cards for the Galactic Profiles set. The reality is that some of them aren't great, but I have got to move on, or else miss the deadline. The cards then go to Topps and Lucasfilm for approval. Is that a great Ackbar sketch? Probably not. But it was approved by the higher-ups. And all I can do is move on to the next and hope it's better.

To have my original work destroyed and defaced is reprehensible and heart-breaking, no matter how dissatisfied the person is. The fact that this person feels that they are entitled to a sketch card and were somehow cheated when not receiving something they wanted (something which is really just a nice, fun freebie for buying a bunch of regular trading cards) is juvenile. He is a spoiled brat and frankly makes me never want to deal with the sketch card community again.

I might point out, too, that these are SKETCH cards, not FINISHED ART cards. If he wants to throw a tantrum and destroy the sketch and then brag about it to his internet buddies, then he has worse problems than receiving a less-than-stellar free drawing.

A sad day.

Like I said, I'm not going to weigh in on the thread myself, but if you want to post this on my behalf, feel free.

And thanks again for the heads up. probably the best thing to do is let the Community know how disgusting and disrespectful this is (which seems to be the general feeling on the thread). Everyone that I've encountered in doing these cards for Star Ward, LoTR, etc. has been nothing but respectful and lovely and it's sad that this Art Destroyer had to come along. He now owns nothing but a piece of trash, and at least I know I can sell my Galactic Profiles return cards to good homes with collectors for much higher prices than he'd ever get for a blank, defaced card."

-Zack
I think it's safe to say I will not be buying any of Zack's cards.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:41 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ZachGiallongo View Post
I was asked to produce FIVE HUNDRED cards for the Galactic Profiles set.
He did 500 cards for a set that doesn't exist!? Dedication I'm kidding, I realize this is said to avoid naming sets and producers and series.

I am very sympathetic to the artists but, yeah, I agree with monkeymcgee it's a little bit of a turnoff. It feels dirty naming names though
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:45 PM   #181 (permalink)
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He did 500 cards for a set that doesn't exist!? Dedication I'm kidding, I realize this is said to avoid naming sets and producers and series.

I am very sympathetic to the artists but, yeah, I agree with monkeymcgee it's a little bit of a turnoff. It feels dirty naming names though
Zack is capable of doing some nice stuff: http://zackules.deviantart.com/gallery/

Not a fan of the attitude in that post, though.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #182 (permalink)
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C'mon... Lets stop acting like none of us ever turned in less than our best or took a short-cut to meet a deadline in our respective jobs. Why? Because the alternative was much worse.

The more I read these threads (here and scoundrel), the more I sympathize with the artists. The company selling the product had every opportunity to reject the card. They didn't. They were greedy. They needed the crappy cards to meet the pack numbers. They could have done shorter runs, less sets a year, delayed the release, or coughed up more money to lure in more artists. They didn't. They approved the card, packed it, and sold it.

Don't like the practice? Stop buying Topps products. Start writing letters to voice your complaint. I work for a global consumer products company. We get thousands of telephone calls a year complaining (and complimenting) our products. We only get a couple of letters. Letters raise eyebrows. Send the damn crap cards back to the company along with the UPCs for your box breaks. Take a stand. Make your point to the people that can affect change.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #183 (permalink)
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One thing occurred to me that might explain some of the artist/collector disagreement on this issue: Do some artists not realize that for many products that their sketches are the main selling point of the product?

I've seen several references from artists in the different venues that the sketches are "freebies", "bonuses", or "nice extras".

Maybe they don't know that their work is what is selling many of these products?
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:05 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
C'mon... Lets stop acting like none of us ever turned in less than our best or took a short-cut to meet a deadline in our respective jobs. Why? Because the alternative was much worse.
I disagree that is the position people are taking here. No one expects the artist's best effort on every sketch.

And to use your analogy, if I did the equivalent of this sketch in my job, I'd expect to get chewed out for it. Which I think is sort of what is going on here.

Topps does have some blame, but so do the artists. If they didn't produce the sketches like this one to begin with, they would not get into the packs.

I don't understand why there can't be more than one point of failure that allowed this sketch to get packed out.
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:47 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
And to use your analogy, if I did the equivalent of this sketch in my job, I'd expect to get chewed out for it. Which I think is sort of what is going on here.
You would get chewed out by your boss. Topps didn't chew this guy out. They paid him his $1.50 and said "thanks," i.e., they are condoning this.

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Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
Topps does have some blame, but so do the artists. If they didn't produce the sketches like this one to begin with, they would not get into the packs.

I don't understand why there can't be more than one point of failure that allowed this sketch to get packed out.
I agree and clearly the artist is accountable for creating the poor quality sketch, but Topps is accountable for its being in circulation.

When we have failures at work, we conduct a root cause analysis and there are follow-ups during continuous improvement reviews. During these meetings we identify points of failure and put the necessary processes into place to ensure the failure does not occur again. In this case, there is an approval process in place to ensure all sketch cards inserted into packs meet a certain standard. Either Topps is not following their internal procedures (letting sub-standard sketches get through) or we the collectors feel that their standards need to be re-evaluated. My guess is that it met their standards, and we believe their standards need to be re-evaluated. The only way that is going to happen is if we the collectors make it known that the continued insertion of such sketches will result in us not purchasing the product.

If the artists continue to be paid for this level of work, they will continue doing this level of work. This is reality. Artists are regular people and therefor share the same work ethic as regular people. Some people are unhappy with anything other than their best, but plenty of people are happy to do the minimum required to maintain employment - and they are constantly testing the boundary.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:28 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Ah, so many points being raised.

I don't think it's right to just kind of lump artists all into one grouping. Like any profession when you get down to the individuals there are all types.
Some are just workhorses who almost physically can't do less than their absolute best, some are just plain lazy, skating by doing the absolute minimum. Most will do competent work, possibly adding a few gems just to show off their capabilities.

I've heard the argument that they were required to do a lot of cards with a short deadline quite often. If the pay is that low why would they agree to it? It's obviously not just the money, so maybe it's for the resume or a way to get their work out there on a licensed set, but if that's the case they why do work that collectors don't appreciate?

Even though I stopped collecting, there are a lot of artists I have great respect for as they do good solid work on sets (I'm not just talking about the few elite high selling artists), but also treat people who buy their AP's and commissioned art well (there's a whole other can of worms regarding certain artist and how they treat paying customers), but some artists, well, let's just say respect has to be earned.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:39 PM   #187 (permalink)
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im glad i dont collect sketch cards, bye to this thread
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:40 PM   #188 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
They paid him his $1.50 and said "thanks," i.e., they are condoning this.
Valid point.

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Originally Posted by Incarnadine View Post
Ah, so many points being raised.

I don't think it's right to just kind of lump artists all into one grouping. Like any profession when you get down to the individuals there are all types.
Some are just workhorses who almost physically can't do less than their absolute best, some are just plain lazy, skating by doing the absolute minimum. Most will do competent work, possibly adding a few gems just to show off their capabilities.

I've heard the argument that they were required to do a lot of cards with a short deadline quite often. If the pay is that low why would they agree to it? It's obviously not just the money, so maybe it's for the resume or a way to get their work out there on a licensed set, but if that's the case they why do work that collectors don't appreciate?

Even though I stopped collecting, there are a lot of artists I have great respect for as they do good solid work on sets (I'm not just talking about the few elite high selling artists), but also treat people who buy their AP's and commissioned art well (there's a whole other can of worms regarding certain artist and how they treat paying customers), but some artists, well, let's just say respect has to be earned.
Well said. I agree.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:50 PM   #189 (permalink)
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im glad i dont collect sketch cards, bye to this thread
Thanks, and please don't come back.

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Old 01-26-2013, 07:55 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Ok I wont come back, good luck to everyone
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:56 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:04 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:26 PM   #193 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
No one expects the artist's best effort on every sketch.
True.

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Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
I don't understand why there can't be more than one point of failure that allowed this sketch to get packed out.
I blame the company, for paying artists so little and for allowing such garbage into their packs. Those artists, who do this type of work because they know they can get away with it, deserve to get ripped on. Even for the most skilled sketch artists, when they do quantity, they still keep it decent, and like Incarnadine said "add a few gems just to show off their capabilities." I mean, If you're going to complain about pay, like that is the main reason you're doing this, don't take the job. Go find other means of advertisment.

In regards to the sketch market in general, one could also blame a company for their sales model that oversaturates the market. As well as the ability to deminish an artists popularity by demanding quantity. Even so, artists agree to this and consumers purchase the product anyway. Just the same, it's nice to see even the most used artist put out some real fine work from time to time.

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im glad i dont collect sketch cards, bye to this thread
The hell are you in such an uproar over this subject if you don't collect? are you some kind of distraught artist? troll perhaps?

Last edited by Ronin; 01-26-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:47 PM   #194 (permalink)
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time to end this discussion. It's turning into a collectors versus artist thing.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:21 PM   #195 (permalink)
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time to end this discussion. It's turning into a collectors versus artist thing.
Shoot, that was a few pages ago.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:36 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Much improved. If this is what we can do to the crap some artists turn in, I'm all for it.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:53 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Popular thread. Anyone got Batman Legend sketches or AP's to sell

Having a hard time finding ones I like.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:02 AM   #198 (permalink)
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Yes, yes I do have Batman AP's for sale. Next month I will have at least 30 assorted AP's for sale hopefully all at a reasonable price of 100 to 200 bucks depending on how I feel I did on the AP's.
This argument is not going to go down very nicely. Beware of causing artists to leave sketch cards.
Let me explain why artists take such big numbers, the companies give the belief, un said, but it's there, that the artists are going to be rewarded somehow by them doing so much work. they will be recognized by collectors, brought to genre conventions, etc, etc. For some schlub to go from walking the cons to having people line up at their table waiting for sketches or autographs is a big deal. Artist by their very nature are willing to put up with a lot of crap as long as there is some favorable thing out there for them. It's not all about AP's. Right now I could probably set up shop at a con and do cards and sell prints and all that crap just from doing sketch cards. only other way would have been to become a comic book artist or creator. So for being a company man and cranking out 500 cards this guy thinks there is some reward out there, never stated, never mentioned, but it's there.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Popular thread. Anyone got Batman Legend sketches or AP's to sell

Having a hard time finding ones I like.
You might want to check out this thread: Scoundrel Art Community • View topic - Artist Proof Card Available (Artists post info)
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:33 AM   #200 (permalink)
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If you guys don't mind, I'd like to post the last one in this thread since I started the thread.

I agree with Roy that we've said about all there needs to be said about it at this point.

Everyone has some strong feelings about this and I understand the frustration of people busting wax getting what they feel is poor value and the artists who feel disrespected by what they perceive are entitled collectors and flippers.

The gatekeeper in this dispute needs to be the party that benefits the most from the collector/artist dynamic: the card companies.

I've been thinking a lot about the points from Spider-Fan and others and I do agree that the easiest solution here is for the card companies not to allow sketches that are not up to par into the product to begin with. This would force the artists to do better and you'd avoid the extreme disappointment on the side of people opening the product.

Obviously this thread has shown there is a strong artist/collector dynamic going on under the surface and it's unfortunate that it has at times turned into an us vs. them situation. I believe we're all on the same side here: other than the folks who *only* do this for the money, we collect these cards or open these products because we really enjoy what the artists create. The artists do things I cannot do and I'm legitimately in awe with some of the great work we come across on these tiny 2.5 x 3.5 "canvases".

I hope some of our frustration about cards like this one hasn't overshadowed the fact that we are fans of the art and artists.

Anyway, I'm going to request this thread be locked and we can all move on to other things now
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