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Old 02-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ok, so I've seen bits and pieces of rumblings about someone taking images and shrinking them down and using a printer to print on the card and then color that image.

So. Who's the someone doing this?
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I guess it's the person who you never see pencils from

Seriously, I was wondering this myself when I saw the Sketch Card Fanatics post about it.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't see the shrinking down part as a bad thing it's the printing part that stinks. Shows a lack of acquired skill. It took me a few years of working on getting smaller and smaller details on those cards to turn around and find people printing out artwork and slapping colors or inks on em and calling them originals.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I've been trying to figure this out too. I remember a while back somebody in the Sketch Lords set was doing something along these lines, but they ended up not being packed out as "sketch cards" but as additional hits.

The subject being brought up again now leads me to believe somebody else is currently employing this technique, but I haven't noticed it.

I think Russ Walks did something like this as well for a few sets, but I recall them being well-received.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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That same person was rejected from the contemporary pinups set.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ken Galan never gave a name he just asked for the blanks back.
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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For those not in the know, the artist in question is Paul Allen Ballard who was a "in demand" artist prior to the newsbreak.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Igman7 View Post
For those not in the know, the artist in question is Paul Allen Ballard who was a "in demand" artist prior to the newsbreak.
Here's a post where the process is explained:

The Official Comic Underworld :: The Seven Revelations Set :: Paul Allen Ballard's Printed Hand-Finished Cards ~ Runboard
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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well aside from printing he was also swiping.



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Old 02-21-2013, 04:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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If he had at least given credit to Boris Valleo and Julie Bell it wouldn't be so bad. I don't know if these were actually printed and pasted on or printed painted and pasted on. If the paints were done by hand that guy has talent. but he did it to himself.
Understand I have no problem with doing homages recreations or tributes but ya gots ta give due credit to the original artists.

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Old 02-21-2013, 04:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Igman7 View Post
For those not in the know, the artist in question is Paul Allen Ballard who was a "in demand" artist prior to the newsbreak.
That's right, I remember now. I wasn't aware of the Vallejo/Bell stuff, though.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:22 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I had no clue. You learn something new everyday!
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Seems he added something to the prints but he didn't do the paintings either unless he did them in photoshop or painter. Some are always looking for a quick way to success. Soon as I saw the pics I knew they were Boris's and Julie Bells.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Hey this is Jim Kyle.....as some of you may know I run Asylum Studios, hence the screen name to the left. My thoughts,as an artist, on this subject is plain and simple. If you find the need to print your cards, get out of the industry. All you are doing in devaluing the hobby and causing mistrust among collectors for artists. There is no artistic challenge in printing your "art". You will never personally advance as an artist. All you are doing is ripping off fans and collectors by doing this.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Meghan Hetrick was showing on Facebook how she does her layout on her computer. She said she then prints it out onto paper, then uses graphite paper to trace it, and then uses that to put the layout on the card.

Here's the exact quote:

Quote:
Well, when i print them, they're on regular paper. I put a sheet of homemade graphite paper, between the cardstock and layouts, and draw over the layouts, thereby transferring it onto the cardstock. Same concept as carbon paper, but eraseable
Obviously the swiping thing is a whole other issue, but what's the difference between the technique above and just printing the layout directly on the card from the computer?

I'll be honest, if most of the sketch cards aren't truly original art, I'm going to rethink collecting them.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
Meghan Hetrick was showing on Facebook how she does her layout on her computer. She said she then prints it out onto paper, then uses graphite paper to trace it, and then uses that to put the layout on the card.

Here's the exact quote:



Obviously the swiping thing is a whole other issue, but what's the difference between the technique above and just printing the layout directly on the card from the computer?

I'll be honest, if most of the sketch cards aren't truly original art, I'm going to rethink collecting them.
I agree the whole thing is a hop skip and a jump, but... eh.

IMO, traditionally transferring the layouts is more like thumbnailing layouts than printing cards. It's considered a pro trick in the traditional art world. You aren't picking up every single line you drew and you have to be careful to get fluid lines instead of something that looks like a tracing. I honestly feel like it's added steps utilized by perfectionists rather than a shortcut. It takes forever to do that kind of thing... imagine covering a piece of paper with pencil, alone, because that's what homemade graphite paper is.

Also, Meghan's layouts are little more than stick figures. It's basically just keeping the extraneous pencil off the card, which helps keep it from sticking and muddying when you use the "line search" aka scribble method like she does. She freehands her figures (with a tablet) without strict reference, transfers by hand and uses traditional media to finish her cards so the only thing I can see to be upset about is that she possibly wasn't doing the work at scale. Am I missing something?

FWIW, I do my sketchcards the way one would assume, but when I do larger art for base cards, commissions, etc. I draw the picture and ink it then scan it in to my computer and marker on a printout of the lineart. Then when I'm finished with that, I ink back over my lines and add line width like normal. It's cheating in that the printout is usually centered better than my original, but mostly it's just that if I screw up the markers I don't want to have to start over from scratch.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Transferring your layouts via graphite paper or light box is TOTALLY different than printng out a photo to color or paint over. First and formost you are transferring YOUR artwork, not someone elses photograph. If you print out a photograph of lets say, Rick from the Walking Dead, you are coloring and or painting over someone elses photography work. It's not your original work.... it's wrong. If you transfer your layouts to say a card or larger 11x17, it's exactly that, your layouts. Your artwork.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
Meghan Hetrick was showing on Facebook how she does her layout on her computer. She said she then prints it out onto paper, then uses graphite paper to trace it, and then uses that to put the layout on the card.

Here's the exact quote:



Obviously the swiping thing is a whole other issue, but what's the difference between the technique above and just printing the layout directly on the card from the computer?

I'll be honest, if most of the sketch cards aren't truly original art, I'm going to rethink collecting them.
Just to set the record straight....The whole printing issue from what I've read and heard about online, is rare. So that shouldn't hinder your thoughts on collecting. But it's like I already said, and you've solidified my point, practices like this ruin the trust between collector and artist.
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
Meghan Hetrick was showing on Facebook how she does her layout on her computer. She said she then prints it out onto paper, then uses graphite paper to trace it, and then uses that to put the layout on the card.

Here's the exact quote:



Obviously the swiping thing is a whole other issue, but what's the difference between the technique above and just printing the layout directly on the card from the computer?

I'll be honest, if most of the sketch cards aren't truly original art, I'm going to rethink collecting them.
Exactly. I must be naive because I never even considered stuff like that was going on. Even creating an original drawing, shrinking it, and transferring it to a sketch card doesn't seem right to me (again, IMO). Not saying it doesn't take skill or anything, but when I think of a hand drawn artist sketch card those techniques are not what I assume goes on to create them.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
I'll be honest, if most of the sketch cards aren't truly original art, I'm going to rethink collecting them.
Trust me, most artists work 100% directly on the card. Only a few handful don't. I'd say 5% or less. One great thing about art casts is that you can see the whole process from start to finish. And if its recorded, you can always go back to watch it if you had to leave during the show. Fewer and fewer artists do art casts, probably because they didn't feel people bothered to watch.
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Old 02-23-2013, 06:45 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashelton View Post
IMO, traditionally transferring the layouts is more like thumbnailing layouts than printing cards. It's considered a pro trick in the traditional art world. You aren't picking up every single line you drew and you have to be careful to get fluid lines instead of something that looks like a tracing. I honestly feel like it's added steps utilized by perfectionists rather than a shortcut. It takes forever to do that kind of thing... imagine covering a piece of paper with pencil, alone, because that's what homemade graphite paper is.

Also, Meghan's layouts are little more than stick figures. It's basically just keeping the extraneous pencil off the card, which helps keep it from sticking and muddying when you use the "line search" aka scribble method like she does. She freehands her figures (with a tablet) without strict reference, transfers by hand and uses traditional media to finish her cards so the only thing I can see to be upset about is that she possibly wasn't doing the work at scale. Am I missing something?

FWIW, I do my sketchcards the way one would assume, but when I do larger art for base cards, commissions, etc. I draw the picture and ink it then scan it in to my computer and marker on a printout of the lineart. Then when I'm finished with that, I ink back over my lines and add line width like normal. It's cheating in that the printout is usually centered better than my original, but mostly it's just that if I screw up the markers I don't want to have to start over from scratch.
Honestly, I don't know enough art technique to say what's cheating and what isn't. I guess my question was just rooted in the fact that if most agree that doing this type of thing directly from the computer is wrong, then why is this different?

I see you point about why you would do this, but I think many of us (maybe naively) believe that all the work was done on the card itself. I wouldn't say it's upsetting, but it does take a little away from the interesting aspect of doing these detailed works on such a small canvas IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumStudios View Post
Transferring your layouts via graphite paper or light box is TOTALLY different than printng out a photo to color or paint over. First and formost you are transferring YOUR artwork, not someone elses photograph. If you print out a photograph of lets say, Rick from the Walking Dead, you are coloring and or painting over someone elses photography work. It's not your original work.... it's wrong. If you transfer your layouts to say a card or larger 11x17, it's exactly that, your layouts. Your artwork.
I thought we were talking about transferring your own work using the computer before. I think doing this using someone else's work is totally wrong regardless of if you printing directly and coloring someone else's work or you traced someone's work and used the graphite paper. Even just doing a freehand copy with attribution is not cool in my book, as Roy mentioned above.

But as I said in reply to Amber, part of what makes these cards cool is the scale. So if you are doing super detailed work and just scaling it down for the card and then coloring that, it just takes away from it a bit IMO. Maybe that's overly picky or whatever, but that's just my take on it.

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Exactly. I must be naive because I never even considered stuff like that was going on. Even creating an original drawing, shrinking it, and transferring it to a sketch card doesn't seem right to me (again, IMO). Not saying it doesn't take skill or anything, but when I think of a hand drawn artist sketch card those techniques are not what I assume goes on to create them.
Glad to know it's not just me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lak Lim View Post
Trust me, most artists work 100% directly on the card. Only a few handful don't. I'd say 5% or less. One great thing about art casts is that you can see the whole process from start to finish. And if its recorded, you can always go back to watch it if you had to leave during the show. Fewer and fewer artists do art casts, probably because they didn't feel people bothered to watch.
Good to know, Lak. I've certainly followed a few artists who show the stages of their work and I really appreciate seeing the cards come together. It's one of the things I really like about doing commissions because you often get to see the work in multiple stages. It just seems this technique is a little unfair to those of you doing it on the card, but like I said maybe I'm just being unreasonable about my expectations.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:49 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by monkeymcgee View Post
Honestly, I don't know enough art technique to say what's cheating and what isn't. I guess my question was just rooted in the fact that if most agree that doing this type of thing directly from the computer is wrong, then why is this different?

I see you point about why you would do this, but I think many of us (maybe naively) believe that all the work was done on the card itself. I wouldn't say it's upsetting, but it does take a little away from the interesting aspect of doing these detailed works on such a small canvas IMO.
Okay... this makes me wonder if - and I'm not trying to be rude or anything - one of the art terms people might not know is "layout" as Meghan uses it.

Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook
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Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook
Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook

These are examples of what she transfers to the cards. The details do get done on the cards, she just has the figure and element placements figured out. Like one does with thumbnailing (mini preliminary sketches to establish ideas), except that she does use the work instead of just referencing them. I can't see that as the same as shrinking and printing (even your own) finished pencils/inks/etc. to the card to avoid having to deal with the technical aspect of working the details and whatnot into the space.

Does that help? Or were we already on the same page?

To be honest, I think there's more effort involved in that than even just using photo references, for example. Because using a stock photo, for example, also skips the step of figuring out how to place the figure on the card. That's just me, though. Not that I have a problem with people who reference regularly, it's just an entirely different process.


And as an aside... I can't think of many artists I know that don't do all their work directly on the cards. Some of us don't do artcasts, but we do post works in progress and sketches in various places like facebook pages or deviantart.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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We don't like it either Monkee, Some of the people making bank from these things makes us who do do all our work on the cards, like we are lazy or un-skilled like those people. This is why I said in the other discussions to not compare any artist to another. And something else I said in one of my artcasts was when you go to a con and get sketches whether they be SC or normal sized con sketch's, make the artist(s) draw it right there. None of that take it back to the hotel and draw it crap. If they can't, don't get a sketch. Adam Hughes cuts off his sketch allotment and just draws the sketch's right there instead of taking anything back to his hotel. Artists may just be greedy or they really can't draw freestyle.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Okay... this makes me wonder if - and I'm not trying to be rude or anything - one of the art terms people might not know is "layout" as Meghan uses it.

Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook
Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook
Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook
Marvel sumpthin' sumpthin' | Facebook

These are examples of what she transfers to the cards. The details do get done on the cards, she just has the figure and element placements figured out. Like one does with thumbnailing (mini preliminary sketches to establish ideas), except that she does use the work instead of just referencing them. I can't see that as the same as shrinking and printing (even your own) finished pencils/inks/etc. to the card to avoid having to deal with the technical aspect of working the details and whatnot into the space.

Does that help? Or were we already on the same page?

To be honest, I think there's more effort involved in that than even just using photo references, for example. Because using a stock photo, for example, also skips the step of figuring out how to place the figure on the card. That's just me, though. Not that I have a problem with people who reference regularly, it's just an entirely different process.


And as an aside... I can't think of many artists I know that don't do all their work directly on the cards. Some of us don't do artcasts, but we do post works in progress and sketches in various places like facebook pages or deviantart.
Thanks for the info and links Amber, that is very interesting. Before your post, I didn't really have any issues with what Meghan described, since to me it sounded like everything being added to the sketch card was being done by hand. And from what you posted, I feel even better about it, since it doesn't look like she just copies a detailed picture onto her sketch cards, just a rough outline.

I think the main reason why printing images directly onto a card is bad, is because it's being done to save time and effort. Meghan's process seems to add time and effort to the process... I think the only time she saves is that she ensures that she doesn't mess up any cards that she would have to redo.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Okay... this makes me wonder if - and I'm not trying to be rude or anything - one of the art terms people might not know is "layout" as Meghan uses it.
No problem--I'm not insulted, but I did understand how you meant the term.

Part of the challenge of the sketch card is getting these figures on the small space, right? Well, if you are doing the framework you base the sketch on using a larger scale and then shrinking it down to card size, that's sort of cheating the challenge.

I agree Meghan is not doing this to the extreme that others may be where basically all they're doing is inking and coloring what they copied over, but it still seems a little out of bounds to me.

Like I said, I'm may be overly harsh about this--I acknowledge that. I just think it takes away from the finished work a little.

Meghan is obviously a crazy talented artist--I don't want anyone to think I'm challenging that.
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