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Old 04-03-2013, 08:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Questionable angelina jolie autograph

THIS CARD IS UP FOR SALE NOW.. 2000 Inkworks Angelina Jolie Tomb Raider Auto BGS 9 5 10 | eBay

THIS ONE RECENTLY SOLD 2000 Tomb Raider Auto Angelina Jolie as Lara Croft A1 Autograph BGS 10 9 Mint | eBay
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
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As far as I can tell the autographs are identical, which simply doesn't happen, especially with a signature like Jolie's. Unless the pictures are somehow of the same card I say they are both fake.

Interestingly, this isn't the first time I've seen cards from 8088 come into question.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't get cards graded but ... is it possible that someone bought the card and thought it could be graded higher so they either sent it in asking why it was a 9 instead of a 9.5 or cut it out of the case and resubmitted it? Although I would think the price difference would be reverse of what it is?
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eldavojohn View Post
I don't get cards graded but ... is it possible that someone bought the card and thought it could be graded higher so they either sent it in asking why it was a 9 instead of a 9.5 or cut it out of the case and resubmitted it? Although I would think the price difference would be reverse of what it is?
Yep--it's possible. With the surface grade being 8.5, if you knew where the issue was and it was something you could clean up (like glue debris or something like that), then you'd have a pretty good chance at getting a bump.

(I used to play around with grading a bit with baseball prospects)
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Exactly the same! Look at the differences between one I own and one that ended on ebay
Attached Thumbnails
Questionable angelina jolie autograph-001.jpg   Questionable angelina jolie autograph-t2ec16rhjgie9nnwqyz3bruq4sk-y-60_3.jpg  
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Pretty sure these are fake. . . I known seller of questionable cards was selling the same cards back in 2010. Search for jolie on webjon.com for the stories from 2010 and pics.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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i think its the same card, must have been re-graded. Even with an autopen or whatever the sigs wouldnt be in the exact same place on the ard there would be some variance even if only slightly...that matches up perfect from what i can tell...has to be the same card.


it was only .5 on the surface away from being a 9.5 so i'm guessing it was cleaned and then re-graded.

could be wrong though...but thats my guess.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Wasnt someone on here called out for pimping one of these?
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eldavojohn View Post
I don't get cards graded but ... is it possible that someone bought the card and thought it could be graded higher so they either sent it in asking why it was a 9 instead of a 9.5 or cut it out of the case and resubmitted it? Although I would think the price difference would be reverse of what it is?
these Jolies pop up all the time with the same autograph,
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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i think its the same card, must have been re-graded. Even with an autopen or whatever the sigs wouldnt be in the exact same place on the ard there would be some variance even if only slightly...that matches up perfect from what i can tell...has to be the same card.


it was only .5 on the surface away from being a 9.5 so i'm guessing it was cleaned and then re-graded.

could be wrong though...but thats my guess.
so you think the buyer payed 947.00 for the Jolie that sold and then relists it at 550.00 with a better grade?
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Pretty sure these are fake. . . I known seller of questionable cards was selling the same cards back in 2010. Search for jolie on webjon.com for the stories from 2010 and pics.
yep... webjon.com
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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these Jolies pop up all the time with the same autograph,
Just trying to think of a plausible explanation ... although the pricing is all wrong on the resale if it was regraded.

Any guess at what is going on then? How is it that we are looking at an identical card? By what forging process did this come to be? I'm not being confrontational, just genuinely curious.

I could see someone buying a blank card, doing an upside down autograph and just selling that but ... this whole process of grading and autograph certified and then printing the same exact signature on the card ... like what? They're not fabbing up the casing. We can simply email BGCS with the pictures and the question of how do both 0006197854 and 0005919928 exist?

Whoops I just figured it out, the numbers are in the wrong order so that means the dates are backwards. Here's what happened (and stick with me here): The card was graded twice. Once on Monday, November 10, 2008 and received an overall grade of 9.5. The person who bought this thought that they could get higher if they touched up the card. So they cut it out of the case but kept the header plate. They then submitted the card for regrading and it was on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 however (in the process of cutting our retouching) they actually made the surface (and corners) worse and it received a 9 instead of their desired 10. So they gambled and lost and cut the header plate out of the BGS case and put in the original 9.5 header plate and put it back up for sale. Of course, if an expert examines the case, they will see that it's been tampered with from the sides where they removed the 9 header plate and put in the 9.5 plate. Both records exist for the same card.

The simpler explanation is that the above happened and the cards are one and the same ... but the pricing makes it look like he not only paid to have it regraded but also decided to cough up ~$500 in realized losses after it didn't come back as a 10.

I'm not defending or attacking anyone or claiming webjon or baytowntex is wrong. I'm just interested in exploring all possibilities before we claim someone is forging cards and not just screwing with grading services trying to game the system.

Last edited by eldavojohn; 04-04-2013 at 08:17 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:35 AM   #13 (permalink)
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After thinking about it some more I guess my explanation doesn't make sense if it initially sold at a 9 and actually changed hands. Perhaps the first sale was a shill sale to establish an unnaturally high value?

How much do graded 9s of this auto usually go for? I see ungradeds go for much less ... is there a history between these sellers?
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:29 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think you are overthinking this eldavojohn. The autographs are exactly the same most likely because it is an autopen. The location is going to be virtually identical because you place the card in the autopen in the same spot, there shouldn't be much variation in location of the autograph.

Also, BGS does not authenticate the autograph unless you do the BGS/JSA option. If it is a pack certified autograph, they assume the autograph is real. That's one reason you see a lot of fake Inkworks autographs graded by BGS, it makes buyers think the autograph has to be real.

Luckily BGS has recently (in the last 6 months or so), required that certain Inkworks cards have to have the autograph authenticated by JSA, and that includes Jolie. However, who knows how many were graded before they started this requirement.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:54 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I think you are overthinking this eldavojohn.
Hey, they don't just hand out tinfoil hats to every sane, rational and gainfully employed contributing member of society!

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The location is going to be virtually identical because you place the card in the autopen in the same spot, there shouldn't be much variation in location of the autograph.
I did not know autopens existed. Glad I'm not an autograph collector!

After reading about them online, it seems the intent of the autopen is not to have users of it create their own autograph matrices ... but I bet with some reverse engineering this could be achieved.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:23 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I commented on another apparent fake from 8088edge over at NSF a while back, I think it was a Katie Holmes.. wonder where they keep getting them.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eldavojohn View Post
Just trying to think of a plausible explanation ... although the pricing is all wrong on the resale if it was regraded.

Any guess at what is going on then? How is it that we are looking at an identical card? By what forging process did this come to be? I'm not being confrontational, just genuinely curious.

I could see someone buying a blank card, doing an upside down autograph and just selling that but ... this whole process of grading and autograph certified and then printing the same exact signature on the card ... like what? They're not fabbing up the casing. We can simply email BGCS with the pictures and the question of how do both 0006197854 and 0005919928 exist?

Whoops I just figured it out, the numbers are in the wrong order so that means the dates are backwards. Here's what happened (and stick with me here): The card was graded twice. Once on Monday, November 10, 2008 and received an overall grade of 9.5. The person who bought this thought that they could get higher if they touched up the card. So they cut it out of the case but kept the header plate. They then submitted the card for regrading and it was on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 however (in the process of cutting our retouching) they actually made the surface (and corners) worse and it received a 9 instead of their desired 10. So they gambled and lost and cut the header plate out of the BGS case and put in the original 9.5 header plate and put it back up for sale. Of course, if an expert examines the case, they will see that it's been tampered with from the sides where they removed the 9 header plate and put in the 9.5 plate. Both records exist for the same card.

The simpler explanation is that the above happened and the cards are one and the same ... but the pricing makes it look like he not only paid to have it regraded but also decided to cough up ~$500 in realized losses after it didn't come back as a 10.

I'm not defending or attacking anyone or claiming webjon or baytowntex is wrong. I'm just interested in exploring all possibilities before we claim someone is forging cards and not just screwing with grading services trying to game the system.
well the seller has said he has owned this card for a year so that is impossible..thanks
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I've decided to jump into the lion's den and hopefully give and get some clarification on my card that is up for debate.

I just became a member of Blowout and since I deal mainly in baseball and football this might be a nice for me. I've been a member of SportsCardForum.com (as the same username) for 8 years and a feedback rating of almost 400.

I originally received a message from Baytowntex within the first 24hrs of the Jolie listing. First, can I certify the autograph. My immediate thought was why would BGS grade a counterfeit auto and add the tab, still to this moment that's where my mind is. Long story short I googled "BGS certifying" and sure enough, one of the first results was this post. I would've been on a lot sooner, but the registration took longer than I had planned here.

I had purchased the card in a nice high end lot on sportscardforum in August from Advan24, same eBay name. Baytowntex, I know I mentioned a year and was way off. The trade/purchase is still accessible on the SCF site. As far as everything else goes there's no scheme going on or some kind of illegal slabbing. I'll be happy to post various photos or things I should look for.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of graded cards, but that's a personal preference and this isn't exactly changing that stance.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VABbum View Post
I've decided to jump into the lion's den and hopefully give and get some clarification on my card that is up for debate.

I just became a member of Blowout and since I deal mainly in baseball and football this might be a nice for me. I've been a member of SportsCardForum.com (as the same username) for 8 years and a feedback rating of almost 400.

I originally received a message from Baytowntex within the first 24hrs of the Jolie listing. First, can I certify the autograph. My immediate thought was why would BGS grade a counterfeit auto and add the tab, still to this moment that's where my mind is. Long story short I googled "BGS certifying" and sure enough, one of the first results was this post. I would've been on a lot sooner, but the registration took longer than I had planned here.

I had purchased the card in a nice high end lot on sportscardforum in August from Advan24, same eBay name. Baytowntex, I know I mentioned a year and was way off. The trade/purchase is still accessible on the SCF site. As far as everything else goes there's no scheme going on or some kind of illegal slabbing. I'll be happy to post various photos or things I should look for.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of graded cards, but that's a personal preference and this isn't exactly changing that stance.
Why dont you send it back to BGS and see what happens.

This has an identical auto but the location is slightly lower. Look at shoulder.

http://webjon.com/blog/?p=873

Also we told Advan it was fake and was given proof. He is now a scammer

2000 Inkworks Tomb Raider Angelina Jolie Autograph #A1 BGS 9.5 FOR SALE
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:44 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VABbum View Post
I've decided to jump into the lion's den and hopefully give and get some clarification on my card that is up for debate.

I just became a member of Blowout and since I deal mainly in baseball and football this might be a nice for me. I've been a member of SportsCardForum.com (as the same username) for 8 years and a feedback rating of almost 400.

I originally received a message from Baytowntex within the first 24hrs of the Jolie listing. First, can I certify the autograph. My immediate thought was why would BGS grade a counterfeit auto and add the tab, still to this moment that's where my mind is. Long story short I googled "BGS certifying" and sure enough, one of the first results was this post. I would've been on a lot sooner, but the registration took longer than I had planned here.

I had purchased the card in a nice high end lot on sportscardforum in August from Advan24, same eBay name. Baytowntex, I know I mentioned a year and was way off. The trade/purchase is still accessible on the SCF site. As far as everything else goes there's no scheme going on or some kind of illegal slabbing. I'll be happy to post various photos or things I should look for.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of graded cards, but that's a personal preference and this isn't exactly changing that stance.
so are you going to take your ebay listing off and get your money back from the person you bought it from.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone.
Seeing that there is a lot of evidence against the card I pulled it from eBay. What really makes me angry is that Advan had all this information and he chose to go to another site (SCF) and not even mention any questionable certification he sold it as being authentic at an authentic price. Well there's one less counterfeit on the market as this one is going in the garbage.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:36 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone.
Seeing that there is a lot of evidence against the card I pulled it from eBay. What really makes me angry is that Advan had all this information and he chose to go to another site (SCF) and not even mention any questionable certification he sold it as being authentic at an authentic price. Well there's one less counterfeit on the market as this one is going in the garbage.
Props for doing the right thing. A lot of people wouldn't.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VABbum View Post
Thanks everyone.
Seeing that there is a lot of evidence against the card I pulled it from eBay. What really makes me angry is that Advan had all this information and he chose to go to another site (SCF) and not even mention any questionable certification he sold it as being authentic at an authentic price. Well there's one less counterfeit on the market as this one is going in the garbage.
Make sure you give proper feedback for the scammer.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:14 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VABbum View Post
Thanks everyone.
Seeing that there is a lot of evidence against the card I pulled it from eBay. What really makes me angry is that Advan had all this information and he chose to go to another site (SCF) and not even mention any questionable certification he sold it as being authentic at an authentic price. Well there's one less counterfeit on the market as this one is going in the garbage.
It's excellent you are doing the right thing -- before you trash it though can you send me high res scans of the front and back so I can archive it, and also see if I can figure out any other ways to tell legitimate Jolie autos from fakes?

Thanks,

Jon
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:22 AM   #25 (permalink)
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It's excellent you are doing the right thing -- before you trash it though can you send me high res scans of the front and back so I can archive it, and also see if I can figure out any other ways to tell legitimate Jolie autos from fakes?

Thanks,

Jon
Might be best just to send it to you.
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