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Old 01-15-2013, 12:45 AM   #26 (permalink)
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This was a hot discussion in my Personal Finance class last semester (Business Major)....

People need to stop playing victim and realize the bigger picture. More $ may need to be taken from you now in order to benefit you in the long term, as well as those less fortunate/skilled than you are....

....trusting the average citizen to invest into an economy greatly increases the risk individuals are left with nothing when they reach their golden years. I would rather improve the current system which was worked pretty well, rather than create a new one.
MMMkay - thanks for coming down from your pedestal of knowledge to bestow your evident vast reserves of wisdom on those of us who don't feel as compelled to believe everything a college professor or the government tells us. You can dance around the semantics but the expiration of a tax cut = increased taxes = a tax hike in most people's minds. You're right that the system has worked pretty well for those fortunate enough to be Baby Boomers - there is no political will for Congress to change the system as rapidly and dramatically as needs to happen for solvency to be achieved, so subsequent generations are likely going to be screwed. If you actually think that you are going to reap greater benefits down the road by paying out more TO THE GOVERNMENT now, then I suspect you may be in for some disappointment.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:53 AM   #27 (permalink)
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My hit was about 3,000$ a month.....Laid off on 01/02/13.
Thats harsh, best of luck finding a new job.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:00 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Edit, I will be nice...
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:29 AM   #29 (permalink)
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MMMkay - thanks for coming down from your pedestal of knowledge to bestow your evident vast reserves of wisdom on those of us who don't feel as compelled to believe everything a college professor or the government tells us. You can dance around the semantics but the expiration of a tax cut = increased taxes = a tax hike in most people's minds. You're right that the system has worked pretty well for those fortunate enough to be Baby Boomers - there is no political will for Congress to change the system as rapidly and dramatically as needs to happen for solvency to be achieved, so subsequent generations are likely going to be screwed. If you actually think that you are going to reap greater benefits down the road by paying out more TO THE GOVERNMENT now, then I suspect you may be in for some disappointment.
I apologize for applying facts/logic/understanding of the system. I will just speculate and go off of gut feeling from now on.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I apologize for applying facts/logic/understanding of the system. I will just speculate and go off of gut feeling from now on.
There ya go, thats the true blowout way
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:32 AM   #31 (permalink)
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MMMkay - thanks for coming down from your pedestal of knowledge to bestow your evident vast reserves of wisdom on those of us who don't feel as compelled to believe everything a college professor or the government tells us. You can dance around the semantics but the expiration of a tax cut = increased taxes = a tax hike in most people's minds. You're right that the system has worked pretty well for those fortunate enough to be Baby Boomers - there is no political will for Congress to change the system as rapidly and dramatically as needs to happen for solvency to be achieved, so subsequent generations are likely going to be screwed. If you actually think that you are going to reap greater benefits down the road by paying out more TO THE GOVERNMENT now, then I suspect you may be in for some disappointment.
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I apologize for applying facts/logic/understanding of the system. I will just speculate and go off of gut feeling from now on.
Bwahaha...gotta love the willfully ignorant.

Sikk, us rational people appreciate your break down. Was certainly not along the normal BO discourse. I usually LOSE brain cells when reading these boards
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:43 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Sikk, you are young and idealistic and that is a perfect place to be in your early 20's. What several folks are saying is to button up because the real life ride will be far different than your text books and professors. Does your Text Book mention how the government cannot wait to get it's hand on all of the existing 401K accounts in the country? Do you know the incredible tax burden and/or expense that Obamacare will place on the working class? Sad thing is that none of our elected officials in Washington care about anything more than getting re-elected.

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I apologize for applying facts/logic/understanding of the system. I will just speculate and go off of gut feeling from now on.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:15 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Sikk, you are young and idealistic and that is a perfect place to be in your early 20's. What several folks are saying is to button up because the real life ride will be far different than your text books and professors. Does your Text Book mention how the government cannot wait to get it's hand on all of the existing 401K accounts in the country? Do you know the incredible tax burden and/or expense that Obamacare will place on the working class? Sad thing is that none of our elected officials in Washington care about anything more than getting re-elected.
And, that government raids trusts that are legally constructed for one purpose and one purpose only. Government does not play by the rules or follow the laws.

Florida has a tax on each barrel of petroleum product that enters the state. The tax is used to fund the cleanup of petroleum spills/leaks/regulation in the state. The program is comletely self sufficient...until the legislature raids the trust (that is set up for one purpose only) to balance the budget and to use for other programs.

The funds paid into the SS system compared to those paid out require a rate of return that is impossible to achieve. It works now, but when we retire the money won't exist. The SS commission will need to seek returns greater than 30% annualized. That is impossible.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:57 AM   #34 (permalink)
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It looks like I'll be bringing home just under $1200 less this year compared to last year. My wife will likely be out another $600-700. Our daycare costs are going up this year too. We also just rolled the mortgage into a 15-year because of the rates (our responsible choice - going from 5% to 2.5%), so we'll be paying that off sooner, but our monthly payment will be going up around $150-200.

It looks to me that there will be around $4000 less to work with this year if we are fortunate enough to not lose any more income.
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:59 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I pay north of $1,000 in income tax a month, I know what you guys are experiencing is different but I still say 'Ouch!' every paycheck.
Dont worry our time is coming soon!! The CDN govt is talking about a double CPP dip. Right now we pay into the CPP which will go belly up as soon as more people retires vs putting in. The govt is planning on starting a 2nd CPP funded by the tax payer. Soon enough we'll pay twice into the same fund!
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:49 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I apologize for applying facts/logic/understanding of the system. I will just speculate and go off of gut feeling from now on.
Fact or fiction: take home pay checks NOW are SMALLER with the HOPE that some day in the FUTURE we MAY see some benefit upon "retirement".
You admitted SS may go belly up in approx 20 years. So what you're telling me is the money I've been paying for the last 15 years and the next 20 years will NEVER be returned to me. That is BS, and anyone trying to tell me different can GFY...
I get my first paycheck in the 2013 pay period Friday. I'll report back with my government sponsored thievery at that time.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:53 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Fact or fiction: take home pay checks NOW are SMALLER with the HOPE that some day in the FUTURE we MAY see some benefit upon "retirement".
You admitted SS may go belly up in approx 20 years. So what you're telling me is the money I've been paying for the last 15 years and the next 20 years will NEVER be returned to me. That is BS, and anyone trying to tell me different can GFY...
I get my first paycheck in the 2013 pay period Friday. I'll report back with my government sponsored thievery at that time.
The issue has always been "Who will take the hit" more than anything else.

In order to start a social program, ponzi scheme or any revolving door program where you put in and later take out must have a loser. That loser is the one that must start the program. Everyone wants universal healthcare benefits, but no one wants to pay for it.

If your generation doesnt take the hit, the next generation will. But it has to start somewhere. Its a bit different for us here in Canada, but my generation will not get anything from our CPP (Canada Pension plan). But we will still pay into. We will also be paying into a 2nd CPP that is supposedly being funded now for my generation and the next. Our govt thinks that 1 CPP ponzi scheme wasnt enough. Their plan? Start a 2nd one lol.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:58 AM   #38 (permalink)
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The issue has always been "Who will take the hit" more than anything else.

In order to start a social program, ponzi scheme or any revolving door program where you put in and later take out must have a loser. That loser is the one that must start the program. Everyone wants universal healthcare benefits, but no one wants to pay for it.

If your generation doesnt take the hit, the next generation will. But it has to start somewhere. Its a bit different for us here in Canada, but my generation will not get anything from our CPP (Canada Pension plan). But we will still pay into. We will also be paying into a 2nd CPP that is supposedly being funded now for my generation and the next. Our govt thinks that 1 CPP ponzi scheme wasnt enough. Their plan? Start a 2nd one lol.
But why does the gov't need to set something up for me? Why can't be responsible for myself and set up my own plan with MY funds?
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:59 AM   #39 (permalink)
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military pay went up 1.7%. so with that, plus allowances, but including the restoration to SS taxes, i'm only up about .30 per pay period. nice to be in the positive considering everyone else's drop. and yeah, not gonna rely on social security being around in 30 years for me, so i've got other investments/retirement funds set away.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:05 PM   #40 (permalink)
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But why does the gov't need to set something up for me? Why can't be responsible for myself and set up my own plan with MY funds?
Don't blame the gov. Blame all the irresponsible people who can't figure it out for themselves. I say get rid of the program. If you can't manage to save for retirement, let your family foot the bill or go live out on the street. Obviously I'm exaggerating a tad, but how does a system work when people are taking out more than they are putting in?

Yes, some will take care of others as there has to be some level of welfare in this country for people who are TRULY down on their luck or unable to care for themselves, but the givers/takers ratio is really starting to get disproportional in our country, and a lot of the programs we have just enable it.

Sorry for venting and going on a tangent...I just deal with this on an everday basis with some able-bodied relatives who can't figure their sh*t out and the rest of us have to pay.
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:38 PM   #41 (permalink)
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But why does the gov't need to set something up for me? Why can't be responsible for myself and set up my own plan with MY funds?
I think that option is available?? You can set up your savings for retirement outside of contributing to a govt pension plan.

But you're absolutely correct. I agree it should be a choice as to whether you fund it or not. Just like EI. Those who own their business dont have to contribute to EI. They also dont benefit from it.

Maybe they force it on people that way when SS does kick in, they wouldnt have to do anything about those who didnt save for post retirement?
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:47 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Dont worry our time is coming soon!! The CDN govt is talking about a double CPP dip. Right now we pay into the CPP which will go belly up as soon as more people retires vs putting in. The govt is planning on starting a 2nd CPP funded by the tax payer. Soon enough we'll pay twice into the same fund!
My dad took 'early' retirement. He is part of the problem and a point of contention lately. People don't understand that you are going to live far longer these day and will bleed the system dry. Too bad he is lazy and doesn't care to be financially responsible.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:04 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Thats harsh, best of luck finding a new job.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #44 (permalink)
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My dad took 'early' retirement. He is part of the problem and a point of contention lately. People don't understand that you are going to live far longer these day and will bleed the system dry. Too bad he is lazy and doesn't care to be financially responsible.
You're absolutely correct. The CPP or the SS system didnt change to evolve with how the generation progressed. The system stayed the same while the contributing factors changed over the years. Population grew with an influx of immigration. Retirees live much longer today than did decades ago. It was bound to happen, but the band aids to the solution never came or came too late because everyone in office was concerned only about 1 thing... how to get 2 terms out of office to qualify for a full govt pension!!

As much as I hate that we will have ton contribute twice as much to maybe get paid out once, I dont mind being the person who has to sacrifice for the generational cycle to catch up. Its either us or the next generation. Someone will have to pay!! Mind you if I didnt have a job or was in more dire circumstances my tone on having to pay double would be much different.

Early retirement also hits another sore point in the labour cycle. Its seen as a good and bad thing. Early retirement is positive in the sense that 1 worker leaving the workforce opens the space for another young worker to come in when the growth sustains. This helps the younger generation get into the workplace in a timely manner. But its also been hindered with those past the age of 65 still working and keeping jobs because of debt. It sends the whole cycle out of whack.

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Old 01-15-2013, 01:23 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I had this argument with my factually challenged brother the other day. He was crying about social security and how he was going to never get as much back as he paid into it... after I used an actually calculater to show him that for his working life he might put in maybe 30k but will get back over 300k+ over say 20 years. Then he called the unemployment office and filed for his check during his winter layoff....
I'd be curious as to what numbers you used because $30K is quite low. If you work from age 16 to retirement age of 67, that is 51 years of paying 6.2% of your pay into the system. Only takes $485,000 in lifetime earnings to pay in $30,070. That's an annual wage of $9,510, which is less than what someone working full time at minimum wage makes ($7.25 per hour here in Texas which is $15,080 per year).

Here's an article from last summer that shows those still working right now will pay in more than they will get out:

Social Security not deal it once was for workers - Yahoo! News

I will have paid in a lot more than I will ever get back, and I've still got many more years of paying ahead of me. Oh, and that's not including 51 years of compound interest that money would have earned... I'll never see the principal, much less the interest.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Sad, but true. Social Security would be in far better shape if our legislators had not been spending the Social Security Surplus for the past 20+ years. Now that the system is approaching more payouts than revenue, the legislators cry that the system is broken.

As soon as US Legislators learn about the Canadian CPP2, how long will it be before we have SS2?

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:40 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I had this argument with my factually challenged brother the other day. He was crying about social security and how he was going to never get as much back as he paid into it... after I used an actually calculater to show him that for his working life he might put in maybe 30k but will get back over 300k+ over say 20 years. Then he called the unemployment office and filed for his check during his winter layoff....
Umm...what??

This post has to go back to grade school style - I'm going to need you to show your work.

If your brother is only putting $30k into SS then he needs a new job.
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