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Old 03-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default No more Pre-Game Flyovers!

I mean, really? Government says it's part of the budget cuts our nation needs so badly. Flyovers are considered training!! These guys/gals are already getting paid around the clock to do what they do, and approximate cost of training is already budgeted! So where, exactly are we saving money by cutting this "expense" ??

God forbid anyone in the stands gets to see a military presence after the national anthem.

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Old 03-01-2013, 11:45 AM   #2 (permalink)
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If I could hire one cop,fireman, or teacher instead of paying for fuel to fly over a stadium I'm all for it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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If I could hire one cop,fireman, or teacher instead of paying for fuel to fly over a stadium I'm all for it.
I would not argue that. Again, flyovers are not specifically paid for. They are "training" missions.. Training that has to, and will happen anyway. Regardless if its over a stadium or over an ocean.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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If I could hire one cop,fireman, or teacher instead of paying for fuel to fly over a stadium I'm all for it.
Contrary to what certain high ranking officials would have you believe, the Federal government does not employ local teachers, police, fire or emergency rescue personnel and therefore, they should not be affected by the sequestration (I say should not because some local yokel may decide that now is a good time to cut budget and blame it on someone else).

So, any savings to the federal government will only be spent elsewhere (entitlements).
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The federal government doesn't fund public education? What are you talking about???? Most cities not only receive government funding but flat out rely on it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:02 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The federal government doesn't fund public education? What are you talking about???? Most cities not only receive government funding but flat out rely on it.
The citizens send the money to the fed and the fed sends the money to the schools.

Government has nothing! Government funds nothing! Every dollar the government spends on something it has taken from someone else. Government doesn't fund the schools, taxpayers do.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The citizens send the money to the fed and the fed sends the money to the schools.

Government has nothing! Government funds nothing! Every dollar the government spends on something it has taken from someone else. Government doesn't fund the schools, taxpayers do.
Semantics. Just saying who cares if there are no more flyovers ? Money better spent elsewhere.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The federal government doesn't fund public education? What are you talking about???? Most cities not only receive government funding but flat out rely on it.
Nice try but I do know what I am talking about here. I was on the local school board, I saw the budget and where the funding came from, other than a few grants for 'special' programs, it was all state and local money...and the local money was raised through property taxes.

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Semantics. Just saying who cares if there are no more flyovers ? Money better spent elsewhere.
I agree that not having flyovers is no big deal but I doubt there is much if any savings there since the training still needs to be completed. Beyond that, why is it that 'money saved' needs to be spent elsewhere? Novel idea, cut back and let us keep a little more in our own pockets. At some point, the money runs out.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Semantics. Just saying who cares if there are no more flyovers ? Money better spent elsewhere.
Gahhh the basis of this is:

1. There is NO extra money being spent on flyovers as it is. Why do away with it, and state your reasoning on "saving money" ??

2. Flyovers actually mean something to citizens/veterans/children that are there to experience it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I would not argue that. Again, flyovers are not specifically paid for. They are "training" missions.. Training that has to, and will happen anyway. Regardless if its over a stadium or over an ocean.
A few things. First, most stadiums are in urban areas with a lot of air traffic. The FAA has to be very active when these flyovers are done. They cost more than a typical training flight for that reason alone. And the FAA is going to see significant cuts.

The locations aren't always near training areas so staging a flyover can be more expensive than a training flight on fuel costs just getting to the flyover.

And finally, there's a PR aspect too. Just like execs ditched private planes after the bailouts for appearances sake, these flyovers would seem extravagant. Even if the costs don't matter much in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Semantics.
It isn't semantics. The sooner people get it in their head that the government is giving out their money, the sooner people will start pressuring government to stop doling it out foolishly.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Back to actual Fly Overs...

I don't care. I'm there for the game.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't care. I'm there for the game.
You mean the fabric of our national identity isn't held together by people oohhing and awwwing at a flyover for 3 seconds during a national anthem at a sporting event?

Heresy!
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't care. I'm there for the game.
Agreed.

I'm not there for a quick air show.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The locations aren't always near training areas so staging a flyover can be more expensive than a training flight on fuel costs just getting to the flyover.
But, for the sake of argument, let's look at it from this point of view:

Pilot A and Pilot B have X amount of hours of training to complete each quarter. They are allotted Z amount of fuel to complete these training missions. This is all accounted for, and approved of, by Department of Defense and Fed. Gov't.

I know its not that simple of an equation in the real world, but it does occur. So does the 2 hour preparation-wait time- execution- landing affect the budget so drastically that they need to do away with it?

Please understand that I am not arguing this for the sake that I am angry. I for one enjoy flyovers, even since I was a child. I still get a rush when I'm at a game and the jets rush by. My 5 year old daughter smiles wide with enjoyment now when it happens, and that makes me proud. I would be okay if the gov't were to say "Not doing this will saving each taxpayer X amount of dollars per year". That is justifiable! Don't just say it's a budget cut when nowhere is it written that a flyover is a specific fund we are pumping money into.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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But, for the sake of argument, let's look at it from this point of view:

Pilot A and Pilot B have X amount of hours of training to complete each quarter. They are allotted Z amount of fuel to complete these training missions. This is all accounted for, and approved of, by Department of Defense and Fed. Gov't.

I know its not that simple of an equation in the real world, but it does occur. So does the 2 hour preparation-wait time- execution- landing affect the budget so drastically that they need to do away with it?
For training, you don't just strap into a seat and make the plane go forward for an hour and you're done. So no, flying over Soldier Field is not the same as doing, say, DACT over Lake Michigan.

But say they do the flyover on the way to some other training like you imply (not sure if they do or not). There are still additional costs including civil air control.


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Please understand that I am not arguing this for the sake that I am angry. I for one enjoy flyovers, even since I was a child. I still get a rush when I'm at a game and the jets rush by. My 5 year old daughter smiles wide with enjoyment now when it happens, and that makes me proud. I would be okay if the gov't were to say "Not doing this will saving each taxpayer X amount of dollars per year". That is justifiable! Don't just say it's a budget cut when nowhere is it written that a flyover is a specific fund we are pumping money into.
I'm sure part of it is a PR move. "See what you're doing with budget cuts? No flyovers for you!" But as a citizen it's still a sacrifice I'd gladly make, be it real or merely symbolic, to get spending under control.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:56 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was never too impressed with 'flyovers'. The first thought that crosses my mind is that it's a waste of money/resources. Not sure whether I'm right or wrong but it's no biggie to me.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm sure part of it is a PR move. "See what you're doing with budget cuts? No flyovers for you!" But as a citizen it's still a sacrifice I'd gladly make, be it real or merely symbolic, to get spending under control.
I feel this statement is the more accurate description of why they are doing away with it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Gahhh the basis of this is:

1. There is NO extra money being spent on flyovers as it is. Why do away with it, and state your reasoning on "saving money" ??

2. Flyovers actually mean something to citizens/veterans/children that are there to experience it.
I'm pretty sure it's extra flight time and not training when it's done

We have weekend flying here at Fort Rucker and it has to be approved. I see the documents that go up with the request and you also have to include cost for:
Fuel (both the fuel and refuelers)
ATC
Crash services
And other extras

Flying 2 helicopters for a few hours on a Sat down here has an estimate of over $300,000 and I'm pretty sure fast movers cost more

So just do the simple math on how many are done and well it does come out to a lot

Don't get me wrong though I'm in the military and seeing fly buys before games is pretty cool when you have a kid and they get all crazy after it happens. That's just an awesome feeling.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I will bow out here.. with this article. There is some pretty useful info! Good discussion, fellas

The cost is deducted from funds used for training

A flyover flight actually counts as training for the pilots

HowStuffWorks "How Military Flyovers Work"
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Nice try but I do know what I am talking about here. I was on the local school board, I saw the budget and where the funding came from, other than a few grants for 'special' programs, it was all state and local money...and the local money was raised through property taxes.



I agree that not having flyovers is no big deal but I doubt there is much if any savings there since the training still needs to be completed. Beyond that, why is it that 'money saved' needs to be spent elsewhere? Novel idea, cut back and let us keep a little more in our own pockets. At some point, the money runs out.
To think all this time I thought there were more than one town in this country. So your town received no government money....wait sorry KMD taxpayers money dispersed by the government, so that means that it didn't happen anywhere else. I assure you, urban areas count on that money.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:16 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I enjoy them, but when money is tight you start by cutting marginal expenditures. These are expensive and outside the norm of a training mission.

And the PR is huge. When the people are scrutinizing your every move you better make those moves wisely even if they are immaterial. The masses are not intelligent enough to understand economics and finance.

And every dollar counts. My office removed all color printers, requires 2-sided printing, raised the A/C temp by two degrees, banned non-flourescent lighting, etc to cut costs. Pennies add up fast when the scale is large.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:46 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I highly doubt there will be mass protests at stadiums across the country once these flyovers stop happening. Not a big deal IMO at all.

Who returns home from a game saying their favorite part was the flyover pre-game? Maybe at a Chiefs' game...
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:48 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:48 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I enjoy them, but when money is tight you start by cutting marginal expenditures. These are expensive and outside the norm of a training mission.

And the PR is huge. When the people are scrutinizing your every move you better make those moves wisely even if they are immaterial. The masses are not intelligent enough to understand economics and finance.

And every dollar counts. My office removed all color printers, requires 2-sided printing, raised the A/C temp by two degrees, banned non-flourescent lighting, etc to cut costs. Pennies add up fast when the scale is large.
Jesus...someone has a stick up their bum.

Talk about micro-managing!
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