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Old 04-20-2013, 08:59 AM   #226 (permalink)
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No, i'm just talking about any silver. They would pay $1 under spot when it was in the $40 and change range.

But when it comes to the American Eagles, is it really more money in your pocket? You're saying they pay $2 over spot, but i've seen remiums of those coins of $3 to $6 each coin! So where's the money to be made on the premium? If anything, that's losing $1 to $4... am I missing something?
I missed a lot since I went to bed last night.

First off, Eagles are too high to buy right now if you're paying up to $6 over spot. I only buy Eagles when the premium is much lower, and the current premium will be going much lower.

Secondly, when I say government minted coins, Eagles aren't the only choice. I used that as an example. Canadian Maple Leafs and Austrian Philharmonics usually have a smaller premium than Eagles, yet have the exact same premium when selling back to dealers.

Lastly, you are correct...if you buy an Eagle today and sell it back to the same seller today, you will be losing money. The same is true for any silver. My point concerning 100 oz. bar buy and sell premiums before was that sometimes the "range" between the buy and sell premiums for these bars "can be" bigger than the range for government minted 1 oz. coins. If the range is smaller on the coins, they're a smarter purchase "at that time". At least in my opinion.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:04 AM   #227 (permalink)
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I keep hearing "silver is silver". While I agree for the most part, it's important to understand that this isn't necessarily true.

For obvious reasons, prices are higher and lower depending on the type of silver you buy. If you're doing this for investment purposes, you should choose the silver that will yield the highest return given YOUR investment time frame. If this is a short term investment vs. a long term investment, your choice of silver might be different.

Also, why would you sell ANY silver to someone at melt when you could sell it instantly to someone else for above melt? Like I said before, there are reputable buyers out there that will buy every single ounce you have for a premium, if it's the right type of silver. That is, as long as they trust what you have is real silver.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:45 AM   #228 (permalink)
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I went to bed to early last night, I missed out on a ton of good info, love this thread guys thanks for all the info. Gibberish thanks for all the info and help dude you're the best!
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:38 PM   #229 (permalink)
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I keep hearing "silver is silver". While I agree for the most part, it's important to understand that this isn't necessarily true.

For obvious reasons, prices are higher and lower depending on the type of silver you buy. If you're doing this for investment purposes, you should choose the silver that will yield the highest return given YOUR investment time frame. If this is a short term investment vs. a long term investment, your choice of silver might be different.

Also, why would you sell ANY silver to someone at melt when you could sell it instantly to someone else for above melt? Like I said before, there are reputable buyers out there that will buy every single ounce you have for a premium, if it's the right type of silver. That is, as long as they trust what you have is real silver.
What I don't understand is, why would individual buyers go to other individuals to buy big quantities, when they can just go to the big sellers and rest more easy? I wouldn't buy off the average joe, i'd rather buy from the big guys... no need to have any second thoughts on what you're getting. It seems like common sense to me. There are way too many shady people out there, so why even bother?

Me personally, i'd rather buy from a reputable online seller, and sell to a very reputable buyer in Manhattan, where they can pay high amounts if necessary, and don't have to worry about where their money is coming from... no dirty money or anything crazy like that.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #230 (permalink)
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You'd be a fool to melt a scare coin, period. Hell, a terribly conditioned 1798 Silver dollar is still worth more than melt.
Hey man, did you see this video?

Top 14 Reasons To Buy Silver Part 1 - YouTube

A lot of great points in there.

Also, check out this vid.

? Buy Silver/Gold Coins/Bullion Part 2 of 2 (Robert Kiyosaki) - YouTube
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #231 (permalink)
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Dave Ramsey doesn't allow me to invest in precious metals
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:50 PM   #232 (permalink)
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Dave Ramsey doesn't allow me to invest in precious metals
No way!!! I just bought that book... I'm throwing it away now
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:57 PM   #233 (permalink)
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What I don't understand is, why would individual buyers go to other individuals to buy big quantities, when they can just go to the big sellers and rest more easy? I wouldn't buy off the average joe, i'd rather buy from the big guys... no need to have any second thoughts on what you're getting. It seems like common sense to me. There are way too many shady people out there, so why even bother?

Me personally, i'd rather buy from a reputable online seller, and sell to a very reputable buyer in Manhattan, where they can pay high amounts if necessary, and don't have to worry about where their money is coming from... no dirty money or anything crazy like that.
You must conduct your own risk analysis and base your decision on your affinity to risk versus potential reward. The higher the risk provides the higher potential for reward, but also opens you to larger downward possibilities.
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:21 PM   #234 (permalink)
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You must conduct your own risk analysis and base your decision on your affinity to risk versus potential reward. The higher the risk provides the higher potential for reward, but also opens you to larger downward possibilities.
Precious metals for me will be a long term investment, so it's gotta grow at some point... there shouldn't be much risk as I will throw on it how much i'm confortable with. If it should go up very high sooner than later, than I will cash out, wait till it goes "lower" again, and start over. Sure they money could be used on "better?" investments, but what are those investments? I don't see any other better investments out there that allow you to have the actual phsysical on you. Sure you can buy stocks of some company, but what happens when that company goes out of business? That's why I like precious metals so much. They'll never go down to zero, and even if they go down, they'll still go back up... all in good time. I hear what you're saying, but there won't be much risk as long as you invest what you can, and do it for long term. I won't put more than 20% of liquid in it, which i've heard should not be more than 10%, but I started later... so gotta make up some time
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:56 PM   #235 (permalink)
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What I don't understand is, why would individual buyers go to other individuals to buy big quantities, when they can just go to the big sellers and rest more easy? I wouldn't buy off the average joe, i'd rather buy from the big guys... no need to have any second thoughts on what you're getting. It seems like common sense to me. There are way too many shady people out there, so why even bother?

Me personally, i'd rather buy from a reputable online seller, and sell to a very reputable buyer in Manhattan, where they can pay high amounts if necessary, and don't have to worry about where their money is coming from... no dirty money or anything crazy like that.
You and I must be talking about two different things.

I know very reputable buyers, ("the big guys"), that pay over spot, and they will buy all you have to sell as long as they know it's real. Therefore I must ask again, why would anyone sell to someone for under spot when they can sell to a "big guy" for over spot? (I'm not talking about 100 oz. bars as the big guys aren't likely to pay over spot for those).
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:59 PM   #236 (permalink)
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You and I must be talking about two different things.

I know very reputable buyers, ("the big guys"), that pay over spot, and they will buy all you have to sell as long as they know it's real. Therefore I must ask again, why would anyone sell to someone for under spot when they can sell to a "big guy" for over spot? (I'm not talking about 100 oz. bars as the big guys aren't likely to pay over spot for those).
Why would they?....

If you could get over spot for a specific thing, then sure go that route. But is that really a profit when you gotta pay that premium up front? You're just getting your premium back, and in many cases, you get less... so I won't get getting into the whole premium coins and bars... i'll stick to the melt value.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:17 PM   #237 (permalink)
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Why would they?....

If you could get over spot for a specific thing, then sure go that route. But is that really a profit when you gotta pay that premium up front? You're just getting your premium back, and in many cases, you get less... so I won't get getting into the whole premium coins and bars... i'll stick to the melt value.
When you buy, are you telling me that the sale value at that moment is exactly the same?
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:35 PM   #238 (permalink)
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When you buy, are you telling me that the sale value at that moment is exactly the same?
No, but it's not at crazy premiums as American Eagles.. up to $6!!!

Anywhere you buy there will be a premium, obviously. Unless of course it's an individual who is selling you fake silver

My point is, the lower the premium the better! Obviously. Getting a premium when you sell because you paid the premium to begin with, doesn't mean anything. Does it? If anything, you lose money on the premium you paid to the premium you got as explained before.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:55 PM   #239 (permalink)
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No, but it's not at crazy premiums as American Eagles.. up to $6!!!

Anywhere you buy there will be a premium, obviously. Unless of course it's an individual who is selling you fake silver

My point is, the lower the premium the better! Obviously. Getting a premium when you sell because you paid the premium to begin with, doesn't mean anything. Does it? If anything, you lose money on the premium you paid to the premium you got as explained before.
The same goes for selling.

When you buy a 100 oz bar, you are paying less of a premium than an Eagle. However, when you go to sell that bar, you are getting less of a premium than when you sell that Eagle. In fact, you probably won't get a premium at all for your bar and will likely have to sell under spot. It will be very, very rare, (probably won't happen), when you "have to" sell an Eagle for under spot.

In the end, if you're not careful, what you think is a smart buy now, (because it's cheaper), might not yield the better return. That's my point.

When buying and selling, "silver is silver" isn't necessarily true. If it was, every ounce of silver would be sold for the exact same price.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:09 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Let me put it another way...

You said...

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My point is, the lower the premium the better! Obviously.
...and you are correct, in terms of buying.

It's completely untrue in terms of selling.

If you invest in anything, you want to be able to sell it for the highest rate of return possible. Sometimes, those "shiny coins" have substantial rates of return, though not always. for instance, have you seen the premiums being offered for the Canadian Wolf 1 oz. coin? Some places are offering to buy all you can sell them for $15 over spot!

Hopefully that makes sense.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:35 PM   #241 (permalink)
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Here's what the Canadian Wolf looks like:

Silver Canadian Wolf Coin Buying Guide | Gainesville Coins

It was released just two short years ago, in 2011. Had you purchased 200 of these shiny 1 oz coins two years ago, you could trade them in today for three 100 oz. silver bars. Now that's quite a return in just two short years.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:37 PM   #242 (permalink)
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LOL....... doesn't matter! You will not make profit off the premium because you are paying it up front. At best you'll just get your money back. But as shown above, in your own words, you will get a $2 premium per coin if you were to sell now. Meanwhile the premium is about $6 per coin, so you're actually losing $4 just on the premium!

Forget premiums all together..... who cares about premiums when you can buy an oz of silver now for about $25 and change, and it will be $100+ per oz!

Premiums Schremiums..........

Forget trying to make your money on premiums, because you will lose more than not. Long term is the way to go anyway, unless it jumps way before time, then unload if that's what floats your boat.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #243 (permalink)
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LOL....... doesn't matter! You will not make profit off the premium because you are paying it up front. At best you'll just get your money back. But as shown above, in your own words, you will get a $2 premium per coin if you were to sell now. Meanwhile the premium is about $6 per coin, so you're actually losing $4 just on the premium!

Forget premiums all together..... who cares about premiums when you can buy an oz of silver now for about $25 and change, and it will be $100+ per oz!

Premiums Schremiums..........

Forget trying to make your money on premiums, because you will lose more than not. Long term is the way to go anyway, unless it jumps way before time, then unload if that's what floats your boat.
It does matter. Here's how:

Mr. S buys two 100 oz. bars in 2011. Mr. M buys 200 1 oz. silver wolves in 2011. (Both equal a total of 200 ounces).

It's now 2013, (just two short years later):

Mr. S's 100 oz. bars are still only worth 200 oz. of silver bars.

Mr. M's 1 oz. coins are now worth over 300 oz. of silver bars. (A 50% increase in his "silver" bottom line)

"Perspective" is a beautiful thing. Almost as beautiful as some "shiny little coins".
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #244 (permalink)
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It does matter. Here's how:

Mr. S buys two 100 oz. bars in 2011. Mr. M buys 200 1 oz. silver wolves in 2011. (Both equal a total of 200 ounces).

It's now 2013, (just two short years later):

Mr. S's 100 oz. bars are still only worth 200 oz. of silver bars.

Mr. M's 1 oz. coins are now worth over 300 oz. of silver bars. (A 50% increase in his "silver" bottom line)

"Perspective" is a beautiful thing. Almost as beautiful as some "shiny little coins".
Well Mr. Z can also be buying super rare bottle caps, and they will crush all of the above.......

If you take silver to a collector thing, then that's a whole different story. I'm not in precious metals for a collection, but as an investment. If you want precious metals as a collection, then buy "precious metal gems" sports cards!

Premiums Schremiums........
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:52 PM   #245 (permalink)
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Well Mr. Z can also be buying super rare bottle caps, and they will crush all of the above.......

If you take silver to a collector thing, then that's a whole different story. I'm not in precious metals for a collection, but as an investment. If you want precious metals as a collection, then buy "precious metal gems" sports cards!

Premiums Schremiums........
You do realize that I just gave you an example of a nice "investment strategy", don't you?

I'm not a collector of coins. I doubt I ever will be. If I was an investor of coins, I would want to invest in those that have the better chance at highest returns, collector market or not.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:57 PM   #246 (permalink)
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You do realize that I just gave you an example of a nice "investment strategy", don't you?

I'm not a collector of coins. I doubt I ever will be. If I was an investor of coins, I would want to invest in those that have the better chance at highest returns, collector market or not.
You gave me the info because you care about me so much, or you just want to prove me wrong? It's fine either way... haha

So you're saying that buying certain coins can gain more value. Ok. But wouldn't the collectors now have to buy them off you? I plan to only deal with big time buyers... so you're saying that even they will buy those "rare" coins for a higher price just as the collectors would?

If that's what you're saying, then it makes A LOT of sense. But i'm not sure i'm ready for the whole collectors side of things, as I would need to do tons of hours of research before I even think about getting into that. Makes sense though, if that's the case. On that note, THANK YOU for proving me wrong
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:59 PM   #247 (permalink)
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To add to mwheeler:

I can't stand Kobe Bryant, but if I have the opportunity to buy one of his cards that is likely to appreciate in price faster than another player I would buy the Kobe card.

Don't focus on your personal preference in the item.

^^from the investment standpoint
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:03 PM   #248 (permalink)
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To add to mwheeler:

I can't stand Kobe Bryant, but if I have the opportunity to buy one of his cards that is likely to appreciate in price faster than another player I would buy the Kobe card.

Don't focus on your personal preference in the item.

^^from the investment standpoint
Well since I treat precious metals as an investment only, I will do, or try to learn, how to do what you guys are talking about.

When it comes to cards though, I never saw it as an investment, and would actually overpay for many cards. I never bought a card just because I thought it would go up in value. But I can see myself doing this with precious metals. There's just a lot to learn..... where does one start! Just so much information, and then for the information, there is contradicting information. It never ends. A little at a time I guess I will learn it all... hopefully. Definitely a lot to take in at once.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:15 PM   #249 (permalink)
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You gave me the info because you care about me so much, or you just want to prove me wrong? It's fine either way... haha
Believe it or not, I'm posting to help everyone see another side of silver "investing".

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So you're saying that buying certain coins can gain more value. Ok. But wouldn't the collectors now have to buy them off you? I plan to only deal with big time buyers... so you're saying that even they will buy those "rare" coins for a higher price just as the collectors would?
No, not necessarily. This is where I knew you and I were going down different paths.

If I had Canadian 1 oz. Wolf coins, I could sell them to several different dealers/"big time buyers" for at least $15 over spot. They then would turn around and try to sell them for $30 or more over spot. If I wanted to deal directly with collectors, (which like you, I probably wouldn't want to do), I could sell them for $30 or more over spot as well.

Yes, I'm saying these dealers would buy them for a higher price, just as the collectors would, however, they won't pay as much as the collectors, and that's why I said I could sell them for $15 over spot all day long instead of what they're going for to collectors at $30 over spot. Imagine that...an "investment" in silver worth more than double spot price in just two short years.

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If that's what you're saying, then it makes A LOT of sense. But i'm not sure i'm ready for the whole collectors side of things, as I would need to do tons of hours of research before I even think about getting into that. Makes sense though, if that's the case. On that note, THANK YOU for proving me wrong
It wasn't about proving you wrong. I just wanted to make sure you weren't overlooking another important part of the silver market. That's all.

Best of luck with your investing. I hope it proves fruitful.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:20 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Well since I treat precious metals as an investment only, I will do, or try to learn, how to do what you guys are talking about.

When it comes to cards though, I never saw it as an investment, and would actually overpay for many cards. I never bought a card just because I thought it would go up in value. But I can see myself doing this with precious metals. There's just a lot to learn..... where does one start! Just so much information, and then for the information, there is contradicting information. It never ends. A little at a time I guess I will learn it all... hopefully. Definitely a lot to take in at once.
Remember:

If it were easy and everyone knew the movement in certainty then you would see no variance.

In every transaction (outside of necessity) both parties believe they are getting the better side.

When you sell that stock that you think is overvalued, remember the buyer is thinking the exact opposite. Profit doesn't magically appear, it comes from capital movement. Someone took the loss.
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