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Old 09-18-2013, 03:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Thoughts on this email from BGS

I got this email from BGS regarding their policy on grading cards from a factory uncut sheet that have been cut out by the consumer:

We can grade cards that are cut from sheets like this as long as they measure to the correct specs. Each product/card is a case by case basis, usually a customer will ask us first if we can accept sheet cut cards of a particular card, etc.

These are not considered altered. Altered is recolored, etc or when a card is determined to be deliberately trimmed or it is a "miscut" from the factory.

Sincerely,
BGS


I'm still trying to figure out what it means by "altered is recolored, etc". What is the "etc" referring to? I like how it also says "or a card is determined to be deliberately trimmed". Cutting a sheet seems like a deliberate trimming to me.

It also seems like it turns uncut sheets of old cards or from sets that are notorious for mis-cutting more valuable because now you have a shot to make it right yourself.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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well... here's a question. If the uncut sheet is the exact same composition as the in-pack cards, and it's cut perfectly, how would BGS be able to tell it came from a sheet anyway?

With that in mind, I don't have a problem with this.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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BGS is in a weird spot.

I obviously know where this is coming from - and I think it's incredibly lame that it wasn't disclosed in the eBay auction. On that point I'm firmly on one side of the argument.

As far as BGS goes though it's tough. If it's not serial #'d how do they know if the person doesn't disclose (assuming the sheet is cut professionally to the exact same size)

Also I can see the argument that BGS isn't in the position to call the card "altered" if it was cut to spec - the "non pack pulled" part is more collector to collector then for BGS to interpret.

At the end of the day it's clear cut that this should be disclosed in a sale if the card isn't pack pulled. I'd prefer that BGS didn't grade them - but I can see how it isn't as cut and dry as it looks.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't like how they said "these aren't considered altered". If they would have explained it like asujbl did, then that sounds a lot better. They should just say "if the card meets the required specs and the sender doesn't tell state that it was from a cut sheet, we don't consider it altered." I just can't see how that can knowingly accept a cut card as unaltered.

I really don't care, because I neither buy graded cards or grade cards myself. I'm more concerned about the integrity of the whole situation.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't like how they said "these aren't considered altered". If they would have explained it like asujbl did, then that sounds a lot better. They should just say "if the card meets the required specs and the sender doesn't tell state that it was from a cut sheet, we don't consider it altered." I just can't see how that can knowingly accept a cut card as unaltered.

I really don't care, because I neither buy graded cards or grade cards myself. I'm more concerned about the integrity of the whole situation.
Agree with that.

In my mind it's altered - and hence why it should be noted by the eventual seller - since it's not pack pulled.

It seems really shady for BGS to grade it on the surface - but it put them in a tough spot if trying to figure out any sheet cut cards that are professionally done. That's an impossible task if they aren't serial numbered and they are cut correctly.

I do think their response was poorly worded.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I don't get the big deal about these sheet cut cards lately?? All cards are cut from a sheet. As long as the card is not altered in any other way or fake ie missing a serial number where applicable. If the card was cut professionally you would have no idea if somebody didn't disclose it was sheet cut by them so who cares?? As long as the card is exactly the same in every way and is in good condition whats the problem?
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I don't get the big deal about these sheet cut cards lately?? All cards are cut from a sheet. As long as the card is not altered in any other way or fake ie missing a serial number where applicable. If the card was cut professionally you would have no idea if somebody didn't disclose it was sheet cut by them so who cares?? As long as the card is exactly the same in every way and is in good condition whats the problem?
The buyer deserves to know that it's not a pack pulled item and it was changed from original state - even if it's the exact same as a pack pulled card.

If I got a card that had discoloration in the corner, so clearly flawed, but I sent it to a professional printer to "color" that corner would you want to know?

Of course you would.

Doesn't mean there isn't a market. No one is saying you shouldn't be able to sell them. Lots of buyers might want them. Every buyer deserves to know if the item has been changed in any way after it left the manufacturer.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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all cards come from uncut sheets at one point, if they are cut correctly then what's the problem? if not cut correctly then BGS should flag them like any other card. I'm guessing that this has to do with the edge grades on non-factory cut cards.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The buyer deserves to know that it's not a pack pulled item and it was changed from original state - even if it's the exact same as a pack pulled card.

If I got a card that had discoloration in the corner, so clearly flawed, but I sent it to a professional printer to "color" that corner would you want to know?

Of course you would.

Doesn't mean there isn't a market. No one is saying you shouldn't be able to sell them. Lots of buyers might want them. Every buyer deserves to know if the item has been changed in any way after it left the manufacturer.
That is a terrible comparison and is not even close to the same thing. You are altering the print or color of the card and that changes the card from how it was manufactured or printed. Totally different IMO. Every single card comes from a sheet so if it is cut right and condition is not effected then there is no difference. Some people may not want cards that were not pack pulled I am fine with that. I just don't see a difference myself and could care less if the card was pack pulled or sheet cut as long as it is exactly the same.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That is a terrible comparison and is not even close to the same thing. You are altering the print or color of the card and that changes the card from how it was manufactured or printed. Totally different IMO. Every single card comes from a sheet so if it is cut right and condition is not effected then there is no difference. Some people may not want cards that were not pack pulled I am fine with that. I just don't see a difference myself and could care less if the card was pack pulled or sheet cut as long as it is exactly the same.
It's absolutely the same thing.

A cut card is not the way it was manufactured - it was manufactured and released by the manufacturer in a sheet - it was changed on the secondary market.

You just proved my point in your response.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i feel some people are really losing sleep over this lol
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It's absolutely the same thing.

A cut card is not the way it was manufactured - it was manufactured and released by the manufacturer in a sheet - it was changed on the secondary market.

You just proved my point in your response.
The manufacturer made both cards the exact same way only they did not cut one of the sheets how do you not get this?? It really doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks anyway because if it is not disclosed you will never know. You probably own one or more of these terrible "non factory cut" sheet cards right now but we will never know so who cares.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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i feel some people are really losing sleep over this lol
Im sure not. I have thousands of cards that were cut from a sheet in fact every single one of them was! LMAO
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If a card is one in 5000 packs and then someone puts out a bunch more from uncut sheets, what does that do to the rarity of the card?
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Im sure not. I have thousands of cards that were cut from a sheet in fact every single one of them was! LMAO
You have thousands of graded cards? Wow

Are cards put into packs then boxes then cases then put on pallets and shipped across the country to shops and dealers then pulled out of the wrapper more or less likely to be in pristine condition than a card cut out from a sheet that a person brings in to get cut then puts into a holder and sent straight in to BGS to get graded?
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The buyer deserves to know that it's not a pack pulled item and it was changed from original state - even if it's the exact same as a pack pulled card.

If I got a card that had discoloration in the corner, so clearly flawed, but I sent it to a professional printer to "color" that corner would you want to know?
Not being pack pulled and sending it out to get a touch up are two completely different things. You really can't explain why you FEEL like it's the wrong thing to do so your just making up outlandish comparisons to strengthing your already weak argument.

With your way of thinking it is unethical to sell a received redemption without telling the buyer it was mailed to you from topps/panini/UD directly and not pack inserted/pulled.

If the guy paid good money to get it cut the exact same way as the factory then I can clearly see why BGS has no issue with it. Now if he did it at his house with a razor blade that's a different story in regards to BGS, the card remains authentic either way.

I said it in the other post and ill say it again here. I always thought an uncut sheet had more value because of scarcity, but I guess not. Which brings me to the point I was trying to make in the other post.

Don't judge other peoples business practices because they will almost certainly conflict with your own.

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If a card is one in 5000 packs and then someone puts out a bunch more from uncut sheets, what does that do to the rarity of the card?
This so far has been the only good argument I've read, and agree that it could change the market.

Capitalism and ethics usually don't mix.
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:02 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Again
As I said in "that" thread.

it is NO different other than the lottery option when you buy a pack.

To me, it is shady on the companies end,but that is it.

No care produced in the 90's is rare. No care produced today is either. There are the X and then there are "back ups".


Per changed on the 2nd market....you mean it was changed into it's "Released" state. That is all that means. No hate here asujbl and I understand where your incredulity comes from, but you are looking at it from a skewed POV and not a realistic one.

If you buy a flashlight that comes with batteries VS the same one without, adding batteries doesn;t change anything, you still have the same flashlight. While this is a terribly trivializing way to explain it, it is accurate. Card A was Cut to X pattern. Card B was not cut,left on the sheet with the rest, someone pays to get it cut like card A...they are still the same card.

Sorry man
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
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If a card is one in 5000 packs and then someone puts out a bunch more from uncut sheets, what does that do to the rarity of the card?
The sheets were produced to be cut and put in packs. Instead the sheet was released instead of being cut. The print run was not changed in any way. This is evident on the card that this thread is based off of. If I remember correctly it was serial numbered 45/50. There are not 2 cards out there now numbered 45/50. It was a sheet meant to be cut and inserted. There are TONS of these. I've owned about 12 of them in the mid 90's.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The sheets were produced to be cut and put in packs. Instead the sheet was released instead of being cut. The print run was not changed in any way. This is evident on the card that this thread is based off of. If I remember correctly it was serial numbered 45/50. There are not 2 cards out there now numbered 45/50. It was a sheet meant to be cut and inserted. There are TONS of these. I've owned about 12 of them in the mid 90's.
I'm not basing it off that card. I'm basing it off the Jambalaya. Now if they printed, say 500 total with 50 additional ones for damage replacements or the like, and the odds were based off the 500 packed out, then those other 50 wouldn't be in the total number for figuring the odds. Or they could have counted those extra 50 into the total when figuring the odds. We don't know and that is just another reason why it's a bad deal. And really, I'm only getting at the ones being graded. The wear and tear of the pack out procedure is what helps make high graded cards so rare. If you cut out a card from a sheet and avoid the issues that come with packout, then it's sullying the grading concept. Would you like the be the guy with the only BGS 10 Black Diamond rookie of whoever just to find out that someone got their hands on a few sheets of uncut cards, precisely cut those cards out, and walked off with 10 more BGS 10s of the same card? There goes your card's value.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm not basing it off that card. I'm basing it off the Jambalaya. Now if they printed, say 500 total with 50 additional ones for damage replacements or the like, and the odds were based off the 500 packed out, then those other 50 wouldn't be in the total number for figuring the odds. Or they could have counted those extra 50 into the total when figuring the odds. We don't know and that is just another reason why it's a bad deal. And really, I'm only getting at the ones being graded. The wear and tear of the pack out procedure is what helps make high graded cards so rare. If you cut out a card from a sheet and avoid the issues that come with packout, then it's sullying the grading concept. Would you like the be the guy with the only BGS 10 Black Diamond rookie of whoever just to find out that someone got their hands on a few sheets of uncut cards, precisely cut those cards out, and walked off with 10 more BGS 10s of the same card? There goes your card's value.
For your example, they would have had to print uncut sheets of Jambalaya. More often, uncut sheets are of base cards and minor chases.

Just seems like you are making this an issue it's very unlikely to become.
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