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Old 10-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #351 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jbmets95 View Post
Now i understand...

So that would be right what ur saying

if he does this trade he cannot keep either trich or foster as of now...
That is correct. He does not have a first round to give up in a trade if he is intending on keeping T-Rich or Foster. Make sure he knows that.


And for future reference, keeping 2 first round players isnt a loss in only 1-3. Its 1-4

Keeping two firsts results in a loss of the next two subsequent picks. Doesnt that mean First rounder one (lost as a first round) First rounder two (lost as that spot+2)...shouldnt that be 1-4 then? If not then thats just saying the second first rounder counts as a second rounder and you only loose one extra round
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:19 PM   #352 (permalink)
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My question wasnt answered. Assuming this trade goes through, what does USAF lose if he wants to keep a first round pick? Since he traded his first round pick away in the trade. Would he then lose his 2nd and 3rd for keeping a first?

Or by the quoted above, he will not be able to keep any first round pick from this year's draft now??

Guess I'm still confused
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:24 PM   #353 (permalink)
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No,

If u keep 2 first round players u only lose 1-3

this is ur message from before

""""""Well it seems like this option is favored already...Keeping two from a first round results in loss of the next to subsequent picks...

IF you keep two firsts and a second then you loose your 1, 2, 3 and 4

IF you keep three firsts then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 even though the chances of this happening is highly unlikely

IF you keep two firsts and a 3rd then it has the same consequences as keeping two firsts and a second...1,2,3,4

I wish more league managers would weigh in on this."""""


The question should be answered is:

if u keep 2 firsts and a second,

do u lose

1-4

or

1-5

i vote 1-5


anyway keeping 2 firsts u lose 1-3

Quote:
Originally Posted by stripedbass91 View Post
That is correct. He does not have a first round to give up in a trade if he is intending on keeping T-Rich or Foster. Make sure he knows that.


And for future reference, keeping 2 first round players isnt a loss in only 1-3. Its 1-4

Keeping two firsts results in a loss of the next two subsequent picks. Doesnt that mean First rounder one (lost as a first round) First rounder two (lost as that spot+2)...shouldnt that be 1-4 then? If not then thats just saying the second first rounder counts as a second rounder and you only loose one extra round
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #354 (permalink)
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He will not be able to keep any first round pick from this years draft...

so he can decide if he wants to play the "win now" strategy or not do the trade

Without a first round draft pick you cannot keep a first round player!
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Originally Posted by mikeman7322 View Post
My question wasnt answered. Assuming this trade goes through, what does USAF lose if he wants to keep a first round pick? Since he traded his first round pick away in the trade. Would he then lose his 2nd and 3rd for keeping a first?

Or by the quoted above, he will not be able to keep any first round pick from this year's draft now??

Guess I'm still confused
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:41 PM   #355 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmets95 View Post
No,

If u keep 2 first round players u only lose 1-3

this is ur message from before

""""""Well it seems like this option is favored already...Keeping two from a first round results in loss of the next to subsequent picks...

IF you keep two firsts and a second then you loose your 1, 2, 3 and 4

IF you keep three firsts then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 even though the chances of this happening is highly unlikely

IF you keep two firsts and a 3rd then it has the same consequences as keeping two firsts and a second...1,2,3,4

I wish more league managers would weigh in on this."""""


The question should be answered is:

if u keep 2 firsts and a second,

do u lose

1-4

or

1-5

i vote 1-5


anyway keeping 2 firsts u lose 1-3
In the thread that you quoted me on doesnt specifically say the rule for just keeping two first rounders....all it hints at is "Keeping two from a first round results in loss of the next to subsequent picks... "

It doesnt make sense to loose only 1-3. Something needs to be changed then. If its only 1-3 then it is pretty much the equivalent of keeping a first round player and a second round player with the penalty of one round. Who wouldnt want to keep their two first rounders if the penalty is only one round....I see how there can be an issue with the newly decided rules...maybe something needs to be amended?
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:45 PM   #356 (permalink)
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I think its crazy that some1 should lose

a 2nd round pick 3rd round pick AND 4th round pick

just to keep a 2nd 1st round pick

lets not forget, to get the additional top player other top players were given up as well...

im confused cause i thot we agreed and like u said in that post that ppl agreed to that keeping 2 first round players would result in losing rounds 1-3
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In the thread that you quoted me on doesnt specifically say the rule for just keeping two first rounders....all it hints at is "Keeping two from a first round results in loss of the next to subsequent picks... "

It doesnt make sense to loose only 1-3. Something needs to be changed then. If its only 1-3 then it is pretty much the equivalent of keeping a first round player and a second round player with the penalty of one round. Who wouldnt want to keep their two first rounders if the penalty is only one round....I see how there can be an issue with the newly decided rules...maybe something needs to be amended?
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:45 PM   #357 (permalink)
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How do you see 2 firsts as equal to a first and second?

per the espn post "2nd round pick --> Kept as a 2nd round pick "

You lose a 3rd by keeping an extra first round pick, which you dont from keeping a second.


And thank you for clarifying my question JB. Makes that a tougher choice to trade future picks
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:54 PM   #358 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jbmets95 View Post
I think its crazy that some1 should lose

a 2nd round pick 3rd round pick AND 4th round pick

just to keep a 2nd 1st round pick

lets not forget, to get the additional top player other top players were given up as well...

im confused cause i thot we agreed and like u said in that post that ppl agreed to that keeping 2 first round players would result in losing rounds 1-3
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Originally Posted by mikeman7322 View Post
How do you see 2 firsts as equal to a first and second?

per the espn post "2nd round pick --> Kept as a 2nd round pick "

You lose a 3rd by keeping an extra first round pick, which you dont from keeping a second.


And thank you for clarifying my question JB. Makes that a tougher choice to trade future picks
Okay no problem. I think I am confusing myself by looking too deeply into it. If this is what everybody wants to keep it as then sure thing.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:49 PM   #359 (permalink)
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No, none of this is what my assumption was. What I thought we agreed to was that you lose 2 subsequent round to make up for the penalty... i.e. the following

For me in 2014:
1st Rd pick - Traded Away
2nd Rd pick & 3rd rd pick to keep Arian Foster
4th Rd pick & 5th rd pick to keep Trent Richardson.

I keep TWO players for 5 rounds of the 2014 draft. This was thoroughly explained in my earlier write up about a 2 rd subsequent penalty. I meet all the draft penalties in this situation. So I do NOT agree that this is what we concurred upon. I think losing 5 rds of draft to keep TWO players is more than sufficient penalty.

To add on, if I elect to trade away both of these players this year, I could very well end up with 2 1st rd picks by trading them away and then potentially redrafting them in the 2014 draft anyways. In that case, I would actually gain an advantage because I wouldn't suffer anywhere near the penalty than keeping them.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:42 AM   #360 (permalink)
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to be completely honest im so very confused

i thought it was made clear that u needed to lose picks 1-3 to keep 2 first round picks...

i didnt think we had a problem there

then to keep 2 first round picks and a second u lose 1-5

i thought that was clear...

therefore if u dont have a first rounder at all u cant keep 2 first round picks...

i personally dont think u should be able to keep 2 first round players for only picks 2,3,4,5

a first round pick should be given away


well since this trade will go thru on tuesday, we need to figure this out and agree before then

can all manager please leave ur thoughts..
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:46 AM   #361 (permalink)
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based on this post and ur response i understand what ur saying

my interpretation is that if u dont have a first round pick then u cant keep a 1st round player... nonetheless keep 2 first round players...

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Old 10-14-2013, 02:06 AM   #362 (permalink)
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I don't see that posted to the rules anywhere... Please cite where you see that in our rules, thank you.
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:55 AM   #363 (permalink)
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the first post explicitly says if u keep 2 first and a second then u lose 1,2,3

and clearly the first round is needed

each scenario in the picture includes giving a first round pick away....


anyone else have any opinion on this issue??
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:39 AM   #364 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usafshelland View Post
No, none of this is what my assumption was. What I thought we agreed to was that you lose 2 subsequent round to make up for the penalty... i.e. the following

For me in 2014:
1st Rd pick - Traded Away
2nd Rd pick & 3rd rd pick to keep Arian Foster
4th Rd pick & 5th rd pick to keep Trent Richardson.

I keep TWO players for 5 rounds of the 2014 draft. This was thoroughly explained in my earlier write up about a 2 rd subsequent penalty. I meet all the draft penalties in this situation. So I do NOT agree that this is what we concurred upon. I think losing 5 rds of draft to keep TWO players is more than sufficient penalty.

To add on, if I elect to trade away both of these players this year, I could very well end up with 2 1st rd picks by trading them away and then potentially redrafting them in the 2014 draft anyways. In that case, I would actually gain an advantage because I wouldn't suffer anywhere near the penalty than keeping them.
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Originally Posted by jbmets95 View Post
the first post explicitly says if u keep 2 first and a second then u lose 1,2,3

and clearly the first round is needed

each scenario in the picture includes giving a first round pick away....


anyone else have any opinion on this issue??
Also on ESPN you say:NOTE: Your last rule posted on Oct 9th is exactly what I'm doing in keeping 3 Firsts... i.e. Arian Foster, Trent Richardson, and trading away my 1st rd selection. That would be 3 1st rd selection, and then losing rounds 1-5.

On that, I will say I AM authorized to keep Arian Foster AND Trent Richardson given my pending trade. The rule is written right there.




Where are you getting an extra first round pick to trade away from? You say you are keeping three firsts? Everyone only has one first round pick. If you trade it away you cannot keep a player which NEEDS a first round to be kept with.


The rules that were posted were regarding keeping more than one player from the same round only. Had nothing to do with trades. For trades its simple, you cannot trade away a pick you dont have. To keep one first round pick, you MUST have your first round pick so it can be taken away. The rules were in regard to what to do if you want to keep a second first rounder since your first pick is already kept for the first 1st rounder you have.

While I do think that the punishment you came up with is ABSOLUTELY steep enough for what you say you are doing, it just makes absolutely no sense overall....You cant trade away you first round pick and then say the next two rounds will just cover it. You are trading away a pick you dont have if you keep any first round player(s)
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:41 AM   #365 (permalink)
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Honestly, I see it both sides and its hard to say which I agree with.

The only thing that I find problematic is that, yes YOU lose a 1st, however a first round pick is not taken away from the draft. A first round talent is lost AND the 1st round pick that would of been lost is still able to be picked. That is what I dont think is fair.

I don't know if anyone will understand my logic from above, but because of that, I feel its unfair to keep first rounders if you dont have a first to lose.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:44 AM   #366 (permalink)
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You definitely shouldn't be allowed to keep a first rounder if you don't have one to lose. Shouldn't even be an argument about it.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:59 AM   #367 (permalink)
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Also on ESPN you say:NOTE: Your last rule posted on Oct 9th is exactly what I'm doing in keeping 3 Firsts... i.e. Arian Foster, Trent Richardson, and trading away my 1st rd selection. That would be 3 1st rd selection, and then losing rounds 1-5.

On that, I will say I AM authorized to keep Arian Foster AND Trent Richardson given my pending trade. The rule is written right there.




Where are you getting an extra first round pick to trade away from? You say you are keeping three firsts? Everyone only has one first round pick. If you trade it away you cannot keep a player which NEEDS a first round to be kept with.


The rules that were posted were regarding keeping more than one player from the same round only. Had nothing to do with trades. For trades its simple, you cannot trade away a pick you dont have. To keep one first round pick, you MUST have your first round pick so it can be taken away. The rules were in regard to what to do if you want to keep a second first rounder since your first pick is already kept for the first 1st rounder you have.

While I do think that the punishment you came up with is ABSOLUTELY steep enough for what you say you are doing, it just makes absolutely no sense overall....You cant trade away you first round pick and then say the next two rounds will just cover it. You are trading away a pick you dont have if you keep any first round player(s)
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Honestly, I see it both sides and its hard to say which I agree with.

The only thing that I find problematic is that, yes YOU lose a 1st, however a first round pick is not taken away from the draft. A first round talent is lost AND the 1st round pick that would of been lost is still able to be picked. That is what I dont think is fair.

I don't know if anyone will understand my logic from above, but because of that, I feel its unfair to keep first rounders if you dont have a first to lose.
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You definitely shouldn't be allowed to keep a first rounder if you don't have one to lose. Shouldn't even be an argument about it.
No where in the rules is there anything stating that I have to HAVE a 1st Rd selection in order to keep a 1st Rd player. NO ONE has shown me where in the rules it states that explicitly. Please post it up if you can show me exactly where that is, I do not see it.

My stance: It's not in the rules, but you guys are trying to punish me for something that doesn't exist in the rules??? Crazy... This is almost as bad as saying, hey I don't like that trade, I'll veto it and with a single vote so that trade doesn't go through.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:22 AM   #368 (permalink)
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Didn't the rules state you lose a first if you keep a first rounder?
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:32 AM   #369 (permalink)
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Didn't the rules state you lose a first if you keep a first rounder?
I believe this was the conclusion that we all came up with?!!....
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No where in the rules is there anything stating that I have to HAVE a 1st Rd selection in order to keep a 1st Rd player. NO ONE has shown me where in the rules it states that explicitly. Please post it up if you can show me exactly where that is, I do not see it.

My stance: It's not in the rules, but you guys are trying to punish me for something that doesn't exist in the rules??? Crazy... This is almost as bad as saying, hey I don't like that trade, I'll veto it and with a single vote so that trade doesn't go through.
The rule list doest state everything...this isnt a constitution where every single detail is outlined. It doesnt say a lot of things that are still clear. This has nothing to do with vetoing....if you keep a first round player you MUST have a first round pick to give up. You cant trade away something you dont have if you plan on keeping a first rounder. It has nothing to do with us not thinking the trade is fair, it is...it just is completely not logical...
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:53 AM   #370 (permalink)
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I believe this was the conclusion that we all came up with?!!....


The rule list doest state everything...this isnt a constitution where every single detail is outlined. It doesnt say a lot of things that are still clear. This has nothing to do with vetoing....if you keep a first round player you MUST have a first round pick to give up. You cant trade away something you dont have if you plan on keeping a first rounder. It has nothing to do with us not thinking the trade is fair, it is...it just is completely not logical...
The rule list SHOULD state everything...and NO WHERE does it state you MUST have a first round pick to keep a first round pick...it only states the penalty for keeping a 1st rd pick and subsequent picks. I still fall in lines of the keeper penalties.

Besides, you are the one whom started this stink in the first place and have no vestment into this trade...so what gives???
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:50 PM   #371 (permalink)
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The penalty for keeping a first is a first right? If you don't have a first then how are you going to be penalized for keeping your first? A 2nd isn't worth a 1st so giving up a 2nd to keep your first round pick isn't fair.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:51 PM   #372 (permalink)
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And we all have 'vvestment' in this trade. No way should anyone be able keep your first round players and not lose your first round pick. Makes no sense at all.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:57 PM   #373 (permalink)
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The penalty for keeping a first is a first right? If you don't have a first then how are you going to be penalized for keeping your first? A 2nd isn't worth a 1st so giving up a 2nd to keep your first round pick isn't fair.
Agreed. Wanna keep a first? Then you must have a first round pick to surrender. Wanna keep a first after trading your first round pick? Sorry, but no dice...

Why is everyone making this so hard. A first round pick is worth a first, no exceptions should apply....
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:50 PM   #374 (permalink)
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Nope, I would be keeping a 1st rd guy for my 2nd AND 3rd, an additional 1st rd guy for my 4th AND 5th. Just like the keeper rules state from previous posts...this does NOT differ from keeper rules previously stated.

Under your "New" rule, NO ONE can keep more than ONE 1st rd guy since you can't keep a 1st rd guy without giving up their 1st rd selection, right?
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:53 PM   #375 (permalink)
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i would b able to keep ray rice and spiller for my 1st 2nd and 3rd round guys

Quote:
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Nope, I would be keeping a 1st rd guy for my 2nd AND 3rd, an additional 1st rd guy for my 4th AND 5th. Just like the keeper rules state from previous posts...this does NOT differ from keeper rules previously stated.

Under your "New" rule, NO ONE can keep more than ONE 1st rd guy since you can't keep a 1st rd guy without giving up their 1st rd selection, right?
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