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Old 04-02-2013, 11:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Seller currently has 2 slabbed Hall cards listed.

One is green ink, and other looks like light blue on my computer.

scott hall leaf from americaniconautographs | eBay
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Old 04-02-2013, 11:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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PSA show 6 Hall autos DNA certified:

2012 Leaf Originals
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Old 04-02-2013, 11:19 PM   #28 (permalink)
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My guess is they were all done at the signing but maybe Hall kept a bunch of them like had a stack set aside after he signed them. The list Leaf announced is what they received back. So maybe in reality he signed 10 in red but Leaf only got one back which is why they announced only one made when in reality 10 were done in the first place.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:24 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Well that's a pretty poor way to keep inventory if Leaf simply relied on adding up whatever cards they got back from Hall to make up their print run list. This particular seller has already sold 5 or 6 blue ink Halls on Ebay in the past few months, then listed 6 PSA encapsulated Halls yesterday, including 2 blue inks, 2 green inks (one of each artwork), and 2 red inks (one of each artwork). That means at least 10-15 Hall cards just disappeared from what Leaf gave (or sent) Hall to sign without any questions apparently asked by Leaf representatives as to why. I suspect there were several more Halls though which were backdoored, simply being spaced out to sell one at a time in order to not look too suspicious. Had it not been for me owning one of the "1/1" red ink Halls these cards would have made it out into the general public. Many others may already have aftermarket ink variants of this card and just not realize it.

By the way all of the above assumes this was not a knowing job by Leaf itself, but I will take Mr. Gray at his word these cards were not taken with his permission.

Lastly, if one recalls, one of the original complaints about this product was these cards did not have COA's on the back. Most of us, including myself, blew this off because we thought every card issued was signed sans a few deliberate "errors" by Missy Hyatt (to play up her "ditzy" character"). Thus, there were no issues about about autograph authenticity so long as Leaf oversaw the signing process itself. But now what? At least in Hall's case several unsigned cards appeared to have made it out past whatever safeguards Leaf had in place and I'm wondering if there even were any. And, if it happened with Halls, one is lead to believe other wrestlers may have taken the same liberties with some of their Leaf cards. This would be ok as far as signature authenticity at least, in so far as the wrestler themselves eventually signs the card, but what if say tomorrow one of the wrestlers in the set passes away? Someone then finds the unsigned Leaf cards or buys the cards in an estate auction unsigned and sees an opportunity to make a little capital by forging said deceased wrestler's signature on the rest of the unsigned cards. Then what? Leaf didn't do enough to safeguard these cards apparently.

In the immediate future, no one is more screwed than I am because I bought the most SP'ed ink variation card out there for a substantial amount of money and now because of this auction it is a known fact there is more than one red ink base hall in existence. I also now have no idea how many others out there are just like it. In the long term however in a sense we are all screwed if we bought these ink variant cards relying on any of Leaf's representations about print runs, because we now can no longer rely definitively on any numbers posted by Leaf. I don't know what Leaf intends to do about that, if anything, for me or any other collector who invested heavily in this product, but it reeks of the ugly side of this so called hobby that many complain about.

I have heard nothing more from Mr. Gray by the way. So we shall see...

Last edited by bullingham; 04-03-2013 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:17 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
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By the way, heres Hall signing these at an American Icon autographs signing of some sorts. Look at that stack!!! American Icon autographs was the one listing the after market 1 of 1 red ink, so unless Leaf was also at that signing, Hall took and signed all those cards which means all Hall owners have been screwed by Leaf's lack of accounting. Go to about 58 seconds into this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgOXD6bFJYg
Great link. If you freeze it at the 1:09 mark, you can see two identical Hall's signed in red ink (lower right hand corner) and there's another card between them (likely also signed in red, but impossible to tell).

Sorry to hear about this. I'd be ticked as well if I bought what I was told was a 1/1 by the manufacturer, and that turned out to not be true due to lack of oversight by said manufacturer.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:43 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Never noticed the two red ink alternates in the video until now. Who knows how many more were signed like that and already made it out into the public. I forwarded a copy of the link of the video to Mr. Gray as well.

I hope this will be handled in a way that helps not only me personally, but also in a way all collectors of this set regain faith in this product and the print runs stated. I don't know what that process would be for me personally to keep me from feeling as ripped off as I already do, but it's got to be more than just buying back a couple of the cards American Icon is now selling in PSA cases (worse while it still continues to sell other Halls). If the toothpaste is already out of the proverbial bottle so to speak and Leaf has no way of verifying what happened to all the Halls or how many went "missing" and were later signed by Hall (as well as how many cards possibly went missing from other wrestlers in the set) then I believe all of us (just more me directly in the Hall sense) were ripped of not only by Hall's apparent actions, but by Leaf's negligence on security in these cards.

I will update if anything is conveyed to me by Mr. Gray.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:49 AM   #32 (permalink)
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4/3/13 Morning update:

Mr. Gray has confirmed the Ebay seller will be sending these cards back to Leaf and they were taken without permission by Scott Hall.

This doesn't really address my entire concern with the issue or that the seller is still running two separate auctions for Halls (including a so called 1/1 green ink), but I suppose it's a start. Hopefully something more will come of this from Mr. Gray when he has the cards back/and has fully investigated what happened. Otherwise, this doesn't really address whether other aftermarket Hall red or green inks might exist in other collector's hands and/or just how many blue ink Halls American Icon sold not only through Ebay, but through other channels which are now in the market that weren't intended to be.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:11 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MasterOfTheDark View Post
Great link. If you freeze it at the 1:09 mark, you can see two identical Hall's signed in red ink (lower right hand corner) and there's another card between them (likely also signed in red, but impossible to tell).

Sorry to hear about this. I'd be ticked as well if I bought what I was told was a 1/1 by the manufacturer, and that turned out to not be true due to lack of oversight by said manufacturer.
Wow. That is really sad to see, as a guy who dumped some dollars into the product myself.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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There must be 300-400 Leaf cards in that video, a 1/1 plate, multiple red background cards, and looks like a decent size stack signed in red ink.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:23 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Also there's a 1/1 black blackground card in the video too.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:26 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Image from the video.

No wonder why very few of these cards have come out of the boxes.
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uh oh (Leaf Wrestling Scott Hall ink variations not really 1 of 1's???)-hall.jpg  
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:45 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I just watched the video and that sucks. It completely kills the value of his cards that people thought were SP's. I have a bunch of his Leaf cards and it makes me wonder if they were pack pulled or not. Those cards should be taken and destroyed or re-released in the 2013 leaf wrestling set if there is going to be another set.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Do you guys think the value of the plate autos will hold up? Even though the plates are not stamped 1/1 (which irritates me and many others) there are only so many of those to go around right?

I kind of wish I would have picked up one of the Hall plate autos when I had the chance...Very interesting read about all of this, and curious to see how everything will unfold/turn out.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:10 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think Leaf only released 4 plates for each base card.

It looks like a stack of Hall plates in the photo (by the size, I'd guess it is all 8 of the plates for Hall).
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:44 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Not trying to be a dick but I do not think that Gray will do anything for you in this case. He did not force anyone to pay high prices for individual cards regardless of there being a stated print run. It just goes to show what kinda company this is when they don't release the run on their website but rather their twitter account. Either way I would not expect any sort of compensation from them as you purchased the card from a private seller and didn't pull it out of a box or case. Just my 2 cents and like I said not trying to be a weiner about it
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:10 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I think anyone who bought a case should get a bonus Scott Hall card
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:47 PM   #42 (permalink)
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He may or may not do anything for me individually. I haven't asked for anything at this point other than express my extreme concern and disappointment over the situation. For the record, he is legally liable (IMHO) to me for my detrimental reliance on his company's statements about my red ink card being a 1/1 if his company was negligent in allowing Hall to make off with a fair number of these cards unsigned to make other red ink copies. Strictly in terms of dollars and cents, I both purchased this card for a high price and turned down a lot of money to sell this card for a substantial price based on Leaf's own representations this card was a 1/1.

My object here though isn't to sue over a few hundred dollars or have Mr. Gray roasted alive, but rather to see what the true story is about this product as well as inform me (and others) about future decisions on buying ANY Leaf products based on what actions Leaf takes in this case. Aside from me, people also opened boxes and cases searching for this card and other Halls when who knows how many cards Hall took off with to be used for any purpose now or in the future. Frankly, I think everyone has been screwed in a sense by their investment in at least the Halls as a result of this situation, I just more so than others as to the red ink as I paid so much for it.

If Mr. Gray chooses to do nothing for me specifically or about this issue generally, then he has lost a loyal customer as well I'm sure as many others for his products as we will no longer be able to trust any info Mr. Gray puts out. That would be unfortunate. As a businessman I hope Mr. Gray appreciates that.

ps I just noticed American Icon has put up another PSA/DNA blue ink Hall. I question now whether Mr. Gray is getting any of these cards back at all.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:20 PM   #43 (permalink)
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You have referenced several times you paid a great deal for this card.

How much did it sell for and how much did you turn down?
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Messed up to hear about all of this, especially because Hall was definitely the card I was looking for in the 3 boxes I bought. I still thoroughly enjoyed opening them, but I think it's obvious that the non-certification of the autos was just the first screw up, and this is now the next one. Hopefully this didn't happen with other wrestlers, but who knows now..
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I prefer to keep the exact amount what I paid to myself or at least not post on the forum. With that said I had at least one offer of $300 on Ebay which I turned down for this card if that gives you a hint. In retrospect I should have jumped at it, but then it would just be another poor person stuck in my situation because they relied on Leaf's representation that the card was a true 1/1 and had some sort of adequate accounting system to insure this was the case. You can disagree with whether you personally think the card is worth what I paid for it, or someone offered me for it, but the fact of the matter is no one would have offered and I certainly wouldn't have paid what I did if I was aware a bunch of unsigned Halls went missing at the signing. It would be the same for any product by the way for any company. If they aren't able to insure accurate accounting of their cards, then why pay any premium at all for any of their supposedly SP'ed or limited #ed cards? While many things are part of the "gamble" of buying a card or a box or a case, that one shouldn't be one of them.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:52 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Leaf should have pulled the Scott Hall card from the set, as well as any other card that was short of the print run, when they started the packaging process. Or at the very least, be upfront about it and acknowledge that they had cards missing from their inventory.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:56 PM   #47 (permalink)
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The problem is also what if it it didn't just happen with the Halls? What if it happened with all the guys in the set? Does Leaf know? Did it know there were missing cards when it released the set and just said "oh well"? If it didn't know there were so many Halls missing, why not? If a lot of missing unsigned cards are out there how do we even know who ends up signing them should a wrestler be deceased or they fall into the wrong hands later on? Are any of Leaf's print run numbers on this set reliable now? Are any Leaf products print run numbers reliable now?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but it seems to me we all ought to find out before investing anymore money in this or any other Leaf product. I hope the answer will be a positive one and not, just the "sh*& happens" type response a lot of businesses are prone to do nowadays.

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Old 04-04-2013, 01:32 AM   #48 (permalink)
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doesn't Brian Gray post occasionally on here. shouldn't he step up and say his side of the story. for a company like Leaf to let this happen is bs.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:37 AM   #49 (permalink)
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The Lou Pearlman of cardboard strikes again

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Old 04-04-2013, 08:02 AM   #50 (permalink)
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On the bright side perhaps you are out a few hundred on the card. None of us every like to lose money on what we think are investments and I realize that element stings.

The bigger problem here is the obvious one that this could alter the market value for cards from this set if the perception becomes this is not an isolated incident.

Leaf has a perception problem now on their hands and it would be very wise to get out in front of it. If I was running Leaf I would buy back your card for what you paid for it and send a message to the market they stand behind their product. I am not sure what the print run was but whatever it was the product seems to have sold well and they clearly have some room to cover a situation like this.

With this product being a success you have to assume they have plans to offer more products like this and the cost to try and put this fire out is worth the expense if they want future products to be received well.

I can't imagine this situation does much to the value of the base auto's but for the time being I could see it putting a black cloud over the various supposedly rare short print auto's. If someone purchased them for investment and not to hold in their collection I would be attempting to sell immediately.

It does appear that numerous cards were pulled down so hopefully you have Leaf's attention.

Keep us posted.
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