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Old 04-04-2013, 09:33 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Could you imaging if this happened with Topps or upper deck with Andrew Luck RC's lol.
People would be burning down their local card shops. Some of his RC's command top dollar, as in Thousand plus. and to find out a card numbered /5 or /1 isnt the only one.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:57 AM   #52 (permalink)
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So someone from American Icon put all these cards that Leaf sent them (and obviously paid for) in front of Hall to sign. Hall takes a stack for himself and the American Icon rep says nothing? Then American Icon sends a smaller amount back to Leaf and nobody at Leaf questions where are the missing cards that they paid for?

This is bizarre. Has anyone tried contacting American Icon?
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:27 PM   #53 (permalink)
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For what it is worth, I bought an item from ebay seller aitx (American Icons Texas) and the Paypal payment went to Brian Gray.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:30 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I can see a plausible initial defense (and I emphasize plausible) for American Icon if Hall told them Leaf had said he could keep some cards. They then bought those extras from Hall, had him sign them, and started to sell those cards online. The innocent factor starts going south however as of the other day when they started selling red and green ink variations of Hall on Ebay which they knew or should have known were intended to be 1 of 1 cards.

In the end though, the responsibility falls on Leaf to Leaf Originals Wrestling collectors for either not noticing the Hall cards went missing and/or at least advising the general public that there may be some rogue Halls out there and/or just removing the Hall cards all together from the set before release.

To later advertise Hall ink variants were one of one "chase cards" on their Twitter account without saying a word about the missing cards shows either Leaf (a) was in on it (b) was incredibly negligent about not realizing so many Hall cards went missing or (c) just didn't give a d@mn. Giving Leaf every benefit of the doubt the answer would still have to be (b) of the above and that still makes them liable in my opinion to myself (who bought this red ink card for a hefty price on their representation regarding the 1/1 print run on the card) and to any other collector who went chasing for this or other Hall ink variation completely clueless that Leaf had let just disappear into the night so many Hall cards. It also calls into question anyone who paid a hefty price for even a blue ink Hall based on a perceived scarcity of the cards generally due to the lack of Hall pulls in box and case breaks and Ebay sales up until now.

I don't know how this could happen with any card company in 2013, even a newer company like Leaf. I am again hopeful Mr. Gray will provide us all answers and take care of myself and anyone else directly impacted by this scandal with this product not only for "us", but for the credibility of his company now and in the future. As pointed out, if this were any other company or product other than "just rasslin", and something like this happened people would be going apesh*t. Mr. Gray is frankly lucky this card ended up in somebody like my hands who has some perspective on the scheme of life and not a die hard lunatic who'd be screaming for bloody murder at the moment.

Again, if I get any updates from Mr. Gray I will advise here.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:33 PM   #55 (permalink)
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If true (the above post about American Icons Texas), that Gray is affiliated that closely with American Icons, and it turned out that Leaf itself was indirectly trying to distribute ALL of the 1/1 Halls after the fact (perhaps not realizing they'd accidentally inserted my red ink Hall into a box) and never intended to insert ANY into packs, the company should be shut down immediately.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:40 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deceptikon1978 View Post
For what it is worth, I bought an item from ebay seller aitx (American Icons Texas) and the Paypal payment went to Brian Gray.
Is American Icons owned by Leaf, or owned by Brian Gray?!?!?
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:48 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Well Brian Gray owns Leaf so...

No idea if he actually owns American Icons though, I just know aitx is American Icons Texas and that payments made to them go to Brian Gray.
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:51 PM   #58 (permalink)
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In defense of Scott Hall, no one knows if he took the cards himself (Hall is not the one selling the cards). All we know is that he signed many (or all) cards at an American Icons signing table.

It is American Icons grading and selling the cards, (red ink that shouldn't exist, according to Leaf).

All anyone really knows is that a massive amount of cards were not inserted into the boxes (Leaf has never claims any card(s) were short-printed, as far as I know), and that a large amount of those cards are shown in the video.

The American Icons Texas/Brian Gray paypal connection is a rather interesting development.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:38 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Sounds like Gray is double dipping. If you are going to do that at least don't do it with supposed 1/1 cards. Look on the bright side, at least Hall actually signed the cards, it would of been way worse to find out his signature was forged. Then the cards would really be worthless.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:45 PM   #60 (permalink)
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True as to Hall, I don't know that he took the cards without permission other than what Mr. Gray has asserted to me himself. As to the Hall's not being short printed and Leaf not ever claiming them to be, that is also true up to a point, though it did make specific claims as to the print runs of the red ink and green ink variations which were supposed to be 1 of 1's.

More importantly, however, Leaf certainly must have noticed at some point when packing out the product: "hey where's all the Halls???" if those cards were not intended to be SP'ed cards in this set. It also watched silently for months as that perception grew on the open market, all the while knowing, or should have been on notice at least, that there were many Halls strangely unaccounted for after their signing and that these white background Hall cards were often only being sold by the same one or two sellers on Ebay. Nothing was mentioned by Leaf however on its website or on Twitter. Only because they had so sp'ed (or so we thought) the red ink base to a 1/1 was it possible for us as collectors to even notice something shady was going on.

Now on top of everything else there is a suggestion Leaf and American Icon are directly financially connected and it just so happened American Icons mysteriously had not only a lot of white background Halls, but were trying to sell every single what were supposed to be 1/1 ink variations the other day.

Something stinks here above and beyond the money I'm out of pocket on the red ink base Hall.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:46 PM   #61 (permalink)
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is there a way to prove yours was pack pulled and not one of the ones hall took and was sold off? this is a cr*ppy situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:51 PM   #62 (permalink)
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ps Someone inside the wrestling industry (Meltzer, Keller, whomever) should point Hall to this thread and see what he is being accused of by the Leaf company and figure out (1) is it true he took a lot of cards he wasn't supposed to at the signing and sold them for a profit to American Icon and (2) has Mr. Gray really since contacted Scott about this issue.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:53 PM   #63 (permalink)
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here is the link to the case break I bought the card from:

Highlights from 5+ Cases of Leaf Originals Wrestling

I doubt the seller made up an entire 5 case break, just to pass off a red ink Hall he didn't in fact pull from a box.
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:09 PM   #64 (permalink)
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The more I read and Leaf does not have a comment, the more they go down the tubes in my eyes....
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:22 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Looks like Brian Gray owns American Icon (and a few other companies). (it seems like a lot the Leaf Wrestling signings were at American Icons table too).

If Brian Gray owns Leaf AND American Icons, I don't buy the story that Hall took the cards, gave them to American Icons, and American Icons will make everything good by returning the cards to Leaf.

Leaf/American Icons/Brian Gray need to come clean about this!!!

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Old 04-04-2013, 05:08 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Wow. It looks worse and worse and I'm starting to wonder if I should be giving Mr. Gray any benefit of the doubt. If Leaf and American Icons are one in the same and Gray either owns or has a substantial financial interest in American Icons, this is not only a potential class action civil lawsuit waiting to happen for everyone who bought his products looking for Halls (and I'll stand in the front of the line at this point if nothing is done to make this right), it is borderline criminal. If exposed by the people with the power to do so (are you reading Beckett?) Leaf should be put out of business if this has happened. I hope there is something more here than meets the eye and Mr. Gray will set this straight, not only for/with me, but for everybody who has bought any of his products in the past.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:21 PM   #67 (permalink)
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By the way I still haven't heard anything more from Brian Gray via email in case anyone is wondering since yesterday morning. I'm trying to still give him the benefit of the doubt in case he needs time to investigate before making things right, but this whole American Icons/Leaf apparent financial tie in is making my patience run thin.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:31 PM   #68 (permalink)
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American Icons also has a bunch of Leaf Wrestling listed, including a PSA/DNA Tatanka #1/5.

I'm starting to think they held on to a lot of good cards.

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Old 04-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Might get some answers at the other forum where he tends to be more active.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I was under the impression that Sean Jacoby was running American Icon autographs.

The company referenced above is American Icons and it is very possible there are two companies.

Call our shop (858) 487-0636. Ask if Sean is available to look at an item for sale.

This is from their site.

If I were you I would call out there immediately and see if you can get some answers.

By the way a class action lawsuit is not going to happen. They will just bankrupt the LLC and start over.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:38 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Very poor......
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:04 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Like I say, I don't know if they are one in the same, but I don't like what I'm seeing. Also I don't want to get too sidetracked with the idea that what Leaf did was bad only if American Icons is a shell company for Brian Gray. This is bad business by Leaf even if everything I've heard so far from Mr. Gray is true, namely Hall ran off with a bunch of Leaf's cards and Leaf didn't notice or say anything about it.

As far as a class action lawsuit, you may be right, but if the end result is putting the company out of business (IF its engaging in these types practices) that's a better result than Leaf as it is constituted today just going on like nothing happened.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:08 PM   #73 (permalink)
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ps As far as calling American Icons, not sure if there's much point. It'd be like calling a suspect and asking if he robbed the bank. I hope there are answers, but I'll wait for Mr. Gray to give them.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:20 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pac213up View Post
Might get some answers at the other forum where he tends to be more active.
Leaf has posted here: (not sure if those are specifically Brian Gray's posts)

On post #6 there is an image link for Hall's original signing (you need to be logged on the site), which is the same table as from the video. So seems obvious that Hall didn't sign for Leaf and then take cards to American Icon and sign them there too.

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Old 04-04-2013, 06:31 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I think the most likely thing here is that American Icon and Leaf worked on this project together and this was a profit sharing idea.

Many of the cards were signed at their sponsored signings and they were great promotion for the product. Perhaps all of them I don't know the details.

It is very possible that Leaf used American Icon almost like an agent to get the cards signed and this easily could have been a non cash payment.

I am more inclined to think that is the situation rather then Brian Grey owning both companies.

It will be interesting to see what details emerge.
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