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Old 04-04-2013, 08:08 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Brian Gray is the owner of American Icons.

Here iss one reference from an article from 2007:

Business owner destroys memorabilia in protest
Brian Gray is taking a stand. The owner of American Icons has removed...

http://www.scntx.com/articles/2007/0...portsfri05.eml
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:56 PM   #77 (permalink)
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American Icons, if an affiliated business with Leaf, may be the purchasing arm that "sells" cut autos or other autographs and such to Leaf for use in various product--not that this makes this association any more ethical, or helps your situation, but just speculating as to the relationship of the companies.

Does Leaf have any products with cut autos?
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:03 PM   #78 (permalink)
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That...is shocking. Heres hoping there is an explanation not involving Mr. Gray double dipping... thats a hard one to top on the unethical pile.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:32 PM   #79 (permalink)
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There's a chance that two similarly named companies are being confused here. Based on an earlier post, it appears that Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf, also owns a company named American Icons. However, the company that held the autograph signings at which Hall appeared and had listed the PSA Hall ink variations on ebay is named American Icon Autographs.

Mr. Gray's companies are based out of Texas, yet American Icon Autographs is based out of San Diego, California. Furthermore, according to their website, they are owned by someone named Sean Jacoby. While it is definitely possible that the two companies are somehow affiliated, there is a very reasonable chance that they are not.

Regardless, something going on here definitely stinks and I sincerely hope that Brian Gray values his customers enough to make this right, not only for Bullingham, but for everyone who collected his wrestling set.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:28 PM   #80 (permalink)
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interesting reading ..

are the Qs being raised here posted on social media sites - like twitter or facebook .. where others can see (aside from blowout)?

good luck in getting some answers
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:03 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Have not mentioned it elsewhere, but anyone feel free to post a link to the thread on any other message board site, twitter account, or facebook account if you so desire. I'd be very interested in hearing from Scott Hall as well on this. If he was falsely accused of wrongfully taking cards by Leaf and/or American Icon (or both) that would be pretty bad. Again I have no idea what's going on other than I don't like it one bit and it has cost me quite a bit of money (and faith in this product and the Leaf company). I'm sure Mr. Gray is aware of this thread. Giving him every benefit of the doubt, perhaps he is still waiting to comment and address any issues pending getting all the facts. The response so far has been less than satisfactory however and has not helped resolve anything.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:04 AM   #82 (permalink)
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If you are boo-hooing about spending five hundred dollars on a wrestling card that didn't turn out to be worth as much as you thought, you are in the wrong hobby. It's not like you spent 20 grand. Don't buy a ticket to the dance if you are scared of getting a drink spilled on your rented tuxedo.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:29 AM   #83 (permalink)
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There was the intelligent response we needed *rolling eyes*. Dasklein, no one here is "boo hooing" about a few hundred dollars down the drain on a card, least of all me, we have all lost money on cards and in this hobby. However, as I said before there are certain gambles we all take in buying and selling singles, boxes, and cases of cards. THIS shouldn't be one of them. This is not a case of I, or anyone else, opening a box or case of cards knowing it was a gamble and it didn't pan out because we didn't get the cards we want. This is not a case of investing in a card THINKING it might be rare or of a future superstar and it later turning out it was not. This is a case where a card company represented a card to be a true 1/1, i.e. ONE COPY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, and something for collectors to chase in their product. Only to find out later on it is not a 1/1 due to either the company's own deliberate actions or negligence in allowing a signer to walk out with a ton of cards unaccounted for and then him signing them at a later date for another company as he pleased. Moreover, it calls into question the print run numbers of the entire product after a great many loyal collectors put money into this product, as well as all of Leaf's other products, trusting in Leaf's own numbers and assurances.

I assure you, if you buy a lottery ticket and lose money you shouldn't be surprised, but there is an obligation on the part of the entity running the lotto to at least have the winning ticket in the product somewhere, as well as to have the actual winning tickets be, you know, winning tickets!
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:39 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Why would people be surprised about Brian Gray double dipping? He did it with the Razor Inkworks Vault products and got caught. He has been in a few other sticky situations with his character in question as well. Leaf Valiant baseball parallels come to mind. MULTIPLE issues under his Razor company. Why do people continue to trust this guy?
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:50 AM   #85 (permalink)
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ps I'm sure Dasklein if you found out your Shawn Michaels artwork from this product (that I imagine you paid handsomely for) turned out not only to NOT be a 1/1, but a one of dozens or even hundreds or really who knows because we weren't paying attention, you'd feel the same way right? Anyway, I can't think of one "sh*t happens" parallel to this in the hobby that would allow anyone to make such a nonchalant comment about what has happened here. This is not a "I didn't get what I hoped for", "suck it up situation", this is a I bought an item certified to be something by the company itself that it was not. In any line of business, that's something the company should not only make right with the customer, but go to great pains to find out how such an issue happened in the first place, so it never happens again. If Leaf chooses not to do so, I don't know why anyone would trust anything Leaf says or sells again in the future.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:50 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruiserdaddy7 View Post
Why would people be surprised about Brian Gray double dipping? He did it with the Razor Inkworks Vault products and got caught. He has been in a few other sticky situations with his character in question as well. Leaf Valiant baseball parallels come to mind. MULTIPLE issues under his Razor company. Why do people continue to trust this guy?
Brian Gray hates redemptions- LOVES double dipping!
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:07 AM   #87 (permalink)
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I have read some of the stuff on the other Leaf issues from afar, that admittedly looked suspect. I don't ever recall a company though being caught in something this black and white that totally undermines an entire product. There is no "out" for Leaf here. Even if Hall STOLE the cards outright, Leaf apparently didn't notice (or noticed, but didn't investigate and/or care) and let this product sell for months without any warnings or disclaimers on the missing Halls. Instead Leaf pumped up the idea that at least the ink variation Halls were 1 of 1 chase cards for collectors to go after in their product all the while knowing (or should have known) there were issues with the Halls that could cause problems.

Again, Mr. Gray may be morally innocent here, if what he says is true, i.e. this wasn't a deliberate action, but he's certainly not legally innocent or not responsible as the owner of Leaf. This was gross negligence at it's best, deliberate fraud on collectors at it's worst. In the worst case scenario, Leaf INTENDED to insert NONE of the 1/1 Hall ink variants in its products and/or was intent on creating Hall ink variants under the radar to sell after the fact. In its best case scenario, the company showed no control over their product and failed to create a basic accounting system for its cards that would catch this.

It's one thing by the way to backdoor some of your better cards no matter how tasteless, it's completely another to f it up so badly your cards aren't even what they claim to be.

Last edited by bullingham; 04-05-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:06 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Bullingham I too have sensed a tone of crying over spilled milk in your responses as you have made numerous statements about how much you spent on the card and how you have lost a great deal.

None of us like to lose money on our card purchases but in reality it is just part of the game.

That being said you have ever right to be upset as this is a serious situation and one that affects every person who has purchased a card from this product.

You are not the only one who should feel slighted or outraged and I think it is very plausible that a black cloud will now hang over the more rare cards from this set as it is very possible there are many more in circulation.

I personally have no interest in a set like this but many others do and I have seen many threads on this board referencing rainbows and 1/1 color variations and every single one of those collectors if they are being honest with themselves has to be somewhat nervous.

You are not the only victim here and that is clear.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:18 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Not sure how I can be accused of crying over spilled milk. I did pay (for me) a lot of money for this card. It's just a fact. I'm not sure why Im supposed to leave that part out of the story and in fact have gone out of my way to repeatedly emphasize this is an issue much larger than me and my money, but rather one for all collectors of this set. I seriously doubt most would even care or make this anything but an issue about the money they were out of pocket. "Crying" implies Im being a baby, which I just don't get. Would anyone rather I just kept it to myself, sold it to someone unsuspecting, and let it be someone else's problem? After all that wouldn't be "crying over spilled milk". This whole we have to find something to criticize the victim for in every situation and moral equivocating routine is why companies in all aspects of life are allowed to get away with so much. I have done nothing wrong here! At all.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:41 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Last point on this whole crying nonsense. Look, I get it, who amongst us hasn't heard someone in the real world "cry" over something however bad that we start to think, ok, get over it, it's not the end of be world? The problem with that here is Im not portraying it as the end of the world. Believe it or not I have a life outside of this card and this message board and Im not up nights with this gouging my eyes out with hot coals. Everyone gets this is just sports cards, or should. Therefore these are not "oooh good point for pointing that out"/"doh never thought of that" arguments, rather they are something even a dumba$$ knows. There are a hundred other things that go on in my life on a daily basis that are more important that I don't talk about here because THEY'RE NOT ABOUT SPORTSCARDS and no one here cares. It also deflects from the main point of my posting this rather than just keeping it to myself (which by he way would have been the easiest thing to do). Whether you like me or don't, like Brian gray or don't, like this set or don't, none of it matters except that a major card company has undermined an entire product either by deliberate action or incredible negligence and we as collectors should be concerned about that.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:00 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Dude take it easy.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:16 AM   #92 (permalink)
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If I didn't know this site better, it would be astounding to me how ridiculous some of you make yourselves look. OP, I totally get what you're saying on the issue, and I can see how it is frustrating. Good luck with the resolution.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:18 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Bullingham, you're 100% right, and have every right to post in the manner that you have. I would've done the same thing. Now, I personally can't justify spending crazy amounts of money on singles, but that's just because I'm a wax breaking junkie and value the thrill of the possible pull, and while I know that going the route I do is always a gamble and mostly always a money loss, even I feel robbed by the company now that it seems to be pretty evident that Leaf did what they did. Hopefully it just occurred with the Hall cards and no one else, but who knows now.. All in all, just a messed up situation
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #94 (permalink)
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I don't consider this thread a "boo hooing" Just for the fact that rarity drives the value of lots of things, sports memoribilia, rare cars, coins, stamps, comics. Not in every case but in alot. If Leaf would not have released a print run for the ink Variations then it would have been one thing. But they did, so he made his purchase based on information that was not accurate. Its not like he bought a RC of a potential star QB and that guy turned out to be ryan leaf. Thats one thing, this card was purchased with a clear understanding that it is a 1/1. I personally made an offer on the same card when it popped up on this forum because I thought it was a 1/1. Making a bad investment and being deceived are two very different things.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #95 (permalink)
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The thread is a very important one and of great interest to many I am sure.

As I have said several times the OP and others who have purchasesd this product should be upset and have every right to be.

The manner in which the OP is communicating to me sounds in some ways like he is crying over spilled milk. Big deal. My perception of how he has expressed his concerns or others are just opinions and are nothing more.

I personally do not think taking a few hunrded dollar loss on a card is the end of the world but the manner in which this has occurred is not good. Personally I think the bigger problem is not the money he is out on the one card but the potential damage this can cause to all of the cards.

You need to get a little thicker skin Bullingham. If someone who is on your side since the first post says the tone of your argument sounds like you are crying over spilled milk it should not warrent such a response.

As I said before hopefully you are taken care of. The problem though is if they take care of you the flood gates might open. Time will tell how this plays out and once more hopefully there is a favorable outcome.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:28 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruiserdaddy7 View Post
Why would people be surprised about Brian Gray double dipping? He did it with the Razor Inkworks Vault products and got caught. He has been in a few other sticky situations with his character in question as well. Leaf Valiant baseball parallels come to mind. MULTIPLE issues under his Razor company. Why do people continue to trust this guy?
Interesting. Had not heard about that happening to those products. I wonder what other recent products may have been shorted key cards? (boxing? MMA?)
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasklein83 View Post
If you are boo-hooing about spending five hundred dollars on a wrestling card that didn't turn out to be worth as much as you thought, you are in the wrong hobby. It's not like you spent 20 grand. Don't buy a ticket to the dance if you are scared of getting a drink spilled on your rented tuxedo.
This goes far beyond that. I suspect a very large amount of other key cards in the set were also withheld from packaging.

A card company's reputation is their most valueable asset. Why hasn't Leaf made any public announcement regarding this matter?
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:09 PM   #98 (permalink)
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My skin is plenty thick enough. I simply got frustrated not only by your post but the initial post you seemed to be agreeing with (in part) which is this all much to do about nothing because "hey it's just grape juice on a rented tuxedo, so quit your crying!" or whatever that nonsense was. The last thing I want this thread or issue to degenerate into is a "well sure you were mislead and ripped off, but you could be being more sporty about it" situation where the company's practices and integrity stops becoming the focus and its more whether you like the set as an investment or how I'm handling it. That sort of distraction is what allows many companies of every type to skirt responsibility for their actions in the first place. For EVERYONE'S sake who has collected this set (and any other Leaf product) lets please try to keep the snarky comments about me off the table for now and instead focus the pressure on Leaf where it should be to explain all this.

The fact is I still have heard nothing further from Mr. Gray in a couple days now nor to my knowledge has he addressed this issue elsewhere. This is not inspiring me to think anything more will be done about this by Leaf which should lead to a great deal of concern for anyone in this hobby, not just collectors of this set. Beckett is nowhere to be found apparently. Scott Hall is MIA. I will continue to grant the benefit of the doubt for a few more days, but we are getting close to a point where I am starting to think Leaf was in on this afterall or is at least more interested in hiding from the issue for fear of damage to its reputation than getting out in front of this to take care of someone like me (and others directly effected) and insure this doesn't happen again in the future. I continue to hope Mr Gray is just waiting to get all the facts and something will be done soon before we all lose faith in Leaf as a company and any Leaf card owned by anyone will become suspect.

Last edited by bullingham; 04-05-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksam View Post
interesting reading ..

are the Qs being raised here posted on social media sites - like twitter or facebook .. where others can see (aside from blowout)?

good luck in getting some answers
Here is Scott Hall's twitter. He is pretty active there

https://twitter.com/SCOTTHALLNWO
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:59 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I don't have an active Twitter account, so if anyone wants to post a link to Scott feel free to do so. I'd be interested in what he has to say. Did he take the extra cards thinking he had permission to do so? If so, why did he think he had permission? Did he sell the cards to American Icon? Has Leaf actually contacted him since this scandal broke out?

I actually blame Hall the least in this situation even if he did take the cards without permission. Leaf should have caught it when the cards went "missing", and American Icons should have checked with Leaf to make sure this was ok by them. American Icons credibility went completely out the window the second it started to try to sell supposed 1/1 ink variation Halls, knowing (or should have known) those cards were intended to be 1/1's and it should not be making extra copies to try to sell.

If Scott Hall has no idea about any of this it suggests to me the corruption lies solely between two parties, Leaf and American Icons.

Last edited by bullingham; 04-05-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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