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Old 04-05-2013, 07:17 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I doubt Hall really had anything to do with it.

I believe Hall signed all the cards at American Icons. (I don't think he took them from a Leaf signing and brought them over himself to American Icons).

I don't know the exact relationship between Leaf and American Icons. They could be the same company/ownership, but also maybe not. It seems most or all of the Leaf signings were with American Icons (not Leaf directly).
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:28 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Yeah I would be mad, but it's not end of the world.
Card I'm sure is still worth a lot. So we have seen a grand total of 2 red ink autos of this card. When a card is not serial # you always take a chance. Heck we have seen multiple superfractor 1/1 have more than one copy.
My best guess is American icons got some product from Leaf for helping do these signings. So Leaf would not know what card and ink colors they might have had.
Would be cool if they do serial everything in next release. But then it takes fun out of guessing on shortprints.

American Icons in CA that does a lot of signings with wrestlers ect. Is not part of Brian Gray business. They have own website and have been around for years in the autograph signing business. Sena Jacoby I think is name of the owner it.

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:20 PM   #103 (permalink)
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The problem with the above explanation is that Mr. Gray denied to me any cards from this set were "given" out and that these Halls were "unauthorized". American Icons claimed, however, the cards were not given to them by Leaf, but SOLD to them BY HALL himself. Moreover, it would mean even if your theory is true, that Leaf intended (or American Icons intended to keep) ALL 4 Scott Hall 1/1's to sell for themselves and that they were never inserted into the product even though Leaf advertised them as chase cards on their twitter account. Additionally, their combined bookkeeping skills were so poor they didn't realize they accidentally let one Hall red ink "slip" into the product and made another. It therefore also calls into question any of the print run numbers in this product as well as any other set Leaf produces. That we continue to hear crickets chirping from Leaf is making me more suspicious by the day. I hope Leaf will step up to the plate.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:31 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Black, Red, blue and yellow are all serial #. We know exactly how many of those exist.

What do you want Leaf to do. No surprise Hall at this time of signing was pretty messed up. Another red ink exits. Not much they can do about. I'm sure next time they will not tweet out anything on ink colors.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:53 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Admit a mistake would be a start. Take some accountability. Explain how this happened and why we should trust any of their other stated print runs in this set, or if we should not, then why not and post updated totals for the red ink and green ink variations in this set NOW. To just stare at the walls and hide under a tin can until this "goes away" would suggest they couldn't care less (or were in on it) and no one should trust them now or in the future about anything they say.

To also just try to pass the buck onto Hall and say "what could we do?" is a total cop out and bad business. Whatever Scott did or didn't do is no excuse for Leaf not catching it (and again that's assuming the absolute best of intentions by Leaf) and it's certainly no excuse for Amercan Icons to be selling extra ink variation Halls when it knows or should have known they were intended to be 1/1's.

This is not the end of the world, but it's also not a situation where everybody says "aw f it" either. This is serious stuff that undermines the credibility of all of Leaf's products and especially this one. A lot of people invested heavily in this product based on what Leaf itself said. That alone is enough for Leaf to try to make this right.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:01 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Also don't again forget that if what you're suggesting is true, that Leaf gave American Icons some cards directly, American Icons lied to me, Brian Gray lied to me, and both by implication accused Scott Hall of theft to try to cover themselves.

On the other hand if they are being truthful, then they basically let Scott Hall sneak off with a fair number of unsigned cards and didn't catch it or care. They mentioned nothing to collectors and in fact but for me having the red supposed one of one, we STILL wouldn't know anything fishy was up. Companies that make millions of dollars need to be held every bit as accountable as individuals do. Mistakes may happen anywhere, but when mistakes are made you try to fix them, not lie or cover them up or pass the buck and say "our hands are tied".

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Old 04-05-2013, 11:50 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Gray is a turd.. seriously, research it. I have more connections in the card hobby than he does.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:17 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Wow it is a TOTAL SHOCK that something that doesn't seem right is happening with a Gray (market) product...maybe it's time to change the name of the company again to try to duck warranted criticism.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:07 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Brian Gray is bad news.

Brian Gray is a guy with money and no morals. Would he back door? Most definitely. Sell cases of products based on people searching for SSP's then sell those SSP's for big money on the bay, that's the Brian Gray way.
This should be interesting to people also. Card Cop has worked for years to make companies accountable and to bring trust back into the hobby. Leaf Wrestling Autograph MISSING Any AUTO Authenticity!!! - Blogs - Sports Card Forum - Sports Cards Community!!!
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:04 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Wow a card cop fan.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:14 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Didn't someone say Leaf got those cards back from American Icons? Lot more than what other companies have done on issues like this.

Ask UD what they would do. How any one has any faith in them is still shocking with all stuff they pulled.

Doesn't Brian Gray list his phone number and take calls with people with issues like this. Maybe they can BGS encase it for you with 1/1 official Leaf red ink Scott Hall. Stamp back of it for you.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Again guys google "Brian Gray Razor" and dig deep. This guy has had alot of questions around him and his products. Abe Lincoln cuts, Stu Ungar cuts, full size jerseys never being inserted via redemption into a product. Not to mention selling Inkworks better hits on an account while he advertised them being in his products. Back doored Valiant baseball parallels from 2012. When no 3rd party is involved to package bad things will/have happened. I have said time and time again I would NEVER buy a Brian Gray product simply based on his history. Changing his company name from Razor to Leaf did not change the morals as well.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:43 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I'll admit, I'm a bit leery to invest significant funds into Series 2 this year now.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:26 PM   #114 (permalink)
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pnft17,

You have a right to your opinion, but I think youre placing a lot of faith in two companies that do not deserve much at the moment for you to assume Leaf got back ALL the extra ink variant Hall cards and have destroyed them (or removed for sure them from the market). What Upper Deck may or may not have done or tried to do in a similar situation is irrelevant though I don't recall any other card company being caught with something so shady yet obvious.

Bottom line is no matter what Leaf did in so far as being knowingly involved with what happened here you can't have two "1/1s" of the exact same card in the exact same product, have another appear for all the world to see, then say "ahhhhh well......" and then go silent about it. Getting the cards back from American Icons without assurances there aren't more out there, nor providing a public explanation of what happened in the first place as well as not listing what steps will be made to insure this doesn't happen again (and by "this" I don't mean steps to insure they dont get caught) is bad business and the sort of thing which only makes them look worse.

Putting my card into a 1/1 case is an idea but I don't think it would fully undo the damage done at this point. Also why would Beckett want to get involved in this at this point, insuring the public my card is definitely now a 1/1 when even Leaf doesn't know anymore? Leaf was on another forum today and failed to address a link to this thread if that means anything, nor have I still received an update with any further explanation or an offer of what to do to try to make this right. If such an explanation is not forthcoming soon I think we all know at that point what kind of company Leaf is.

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Old 04-06-2013, 07:49 PM   #115 (permalink)
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As I promised the OP, Leaf investigated these cards last week as we publicly announced which cards we actually received back and released.

We have determined that Mr.Hall kept approximately 30 of these cards WITHOUT authorization... We have successfully negotiated for their safe return to leaf for destruction.

I do sincerely apologize for the issue. This is a very unusual circumstance which I am pleased to report , had been handled thanks to the quick notification of the OP..

I can assure you that the company selling these cards on eBay has no ownership relationship with leaf. They helped facilitate signings with several wrestlers and I am confident this sort of issue will NOT be a recurring issue.

Any further questions can be addressed to brian@leaftradingcards.com

BG
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:19 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAF;

I can assure you that the company selling these cards on eBay has no ownership relationship with leaf. They helped facilitate signings with several wrestlers and I am confident this sort of issue will NOT be a recurring issue.

BG
That is a weird way to say I am in no way affiliated with the company selling those autos.
That company has no ownership relationship with Leaf huh? Is he talking in terms of strict corporate law, like, my one LLC has no ownership associations with my others, because I am crafty and pay lawyers well.
People, this guy thinks he can get away with anything, Scott Hall is broke, you can buy a day with him in DDP's rehab house. I can see a case where he would profit in any way possible, but Grays little message still comes off with him smelling like the pooh is on his hands.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Let me be more clear, American icons in San Diego is in no way controlled or related in any of its operations to any business I own..

His company helped us secure a handful of wrestlers for this product.
In NO way was HALL or American icons authorized to keep any cards.

We have demanded the return of the cards and they are complying..
We will be destroying these returned cards.

Is this plain enough to understand?

The name of this company is purely coincidental to my eBay store for selling non-leaf cards/memorabilia.

You can listen to garbage speculation/rumor/libel from certain members who only pipe in to talk trash, however doing so is almost as irresponsible as these untrue posts.

I cannot and will not address these "cyber bullies" further..
If anyone actually cares for facts, I can be reached at 214-519-1078..
Anne one of you wishes to call and get the facts to share with everyone else (rather than rely on BS from certain parties who have no clue about this issue..
BG

Ps- we have contacted the original poster. Hopefully, he will share feedback on our investigation/handling of the situation he was kind enough to make us aware of.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:47 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Mr. Gray,

I appreciate you coming on here to update everyone with this situation.

A few questions remain for me, and I'm sure others, that I think need to be addressed (if you would prefer to do so privately, I will be in touch):

(1) How is it possible Scott Hall took 30 cards without anyone noticing at your company?

(2) How did Americon Icons justify to you why they did not ask you about whether or not Hall had permission to "keep" so many cards and sell them to them directly?

(3) Had your company ever noticed the missing Halls? If not why not and what steps will you take to insure this doesn't happen again?

(4) Will your company continue to do business with American Icons after they attempted to sell aftermarket cards they knew were announced and intended by your company to be 1/1s?

(5) Have you made steps to insure other wrestlers did not act in a similar manner?

As it relates to any specific questions about anything personally related to me and my card red ink Hall, I will be happy to discuss those with you privately.

Regards.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:52 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Bullingham,
I am happy to address you questions so you can report back to all..
I am at 214-519-1078.. BG
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:20 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Very cool of Leaf to come on here and clear it up. Does Topps, Panini, UD ever do this. Hell NO!!!!

Bullingham you gotta be happy knowing Leaf got back that red ink. You know no other company would have done that and so quickly. Nice job Leaf.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:49 PM   #121 (permalink)
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But yet there are still some on ebay from american icons autographs...didn't pull a single Hall in my case, in fact i pulled several doubles and triples of certain wrestlers, but yet they got them without ever having to open product.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:24 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffyb View Post
But yet there are still some on ebay from american icons autographs...didn't pull a single Hall in my case, in fact i pulled several doubles and triples of certain wrestlers, but yet they got them without ever having to open product.
I opened 2 cases and that same thing happened with Flair, none in the first case but 2 in the second. Also no Hogan in the second but 1 in the first. I know someone who pulled 3 hall's in his one case, its just random. Thats the way the hobby is.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:32 PM   #123 (permalink)
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The Halls on Ebay from American Icons are the white background regular ink, correct? Yes, I agree that the fact that the "shrinkage" on Hall's part from this product is regrettable. But, from BG's post, it seems as though Leaf is standing behind its statements regarding the ink variant numbers released and has rectified the situation in as much as they have retrieved the "leaked" ink variants. To each their own with regard to opinion and skepticism, but personally I accept the explanation of Leaf and realize that, with any non-serial numbered product, there is always going to be some inherent mystery as to the exact number of items floating out there.

As an avid collector of the ink variants, and this set in general, I will say that I respect BG for coming on here and directly addressing the issue. In fact, and I realize I may be in the minority, my enjoyment of this product hasn't wavered in the slightest--despite all the issues people have brought up, both before (with the "non-certified auto" issue) and now, I personally have thoroughly enjoyed building this set.

Bullingham, when all this shakes out and if Leaf doesn't address and/or satisfy your concerns, I would still pay you a decent chunk of change for that Scott Hall base red ink variant and Nash red ink variant art you have if you are interested.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:56 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Seems like we're moving in a positive direction, lets just hope it continues and hiccups like this won't happen again.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:00 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evillittlejawa View Post
Seems like we're moving in a positive direction, lets just hope it continues and hiccups like this won't happen again.
I disagree... the fact that BG couldn't answer op's questions in this thread is just terrible. Man up and answer yourself for everyone instead of letting someone else pass the word along. Dear, Mr. Gray - Grow a set.
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