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Old 04-07-2013, 01:26 AM   #126 (permalink)
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I appreciate Leaf shedding light on this matter in a public forum. I myself can't recall another major card company doing the same for similar issues.

I have a concern, if Leaf would care to respond.

Was the scarcity of some base/alt autos (Hogan, Flair, DiBiase, and a few others) in the set intentional? (to my knowledge, Leaf hasn't stated any cards were short-printed). I know production figures were never revealed, but could the scarcity of some of the cards be related to similar issues to what occured with the Scott Hall cards?
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:34 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Why is everyone hating on Mr. Gray? He's acknowledged the problem and is taking steps to correct the situation. Posting here is above and beyond IMO.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:51 AM   #128 (permalink)
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As a heads up to everyone else, I will hopefully be talking to Mr. Gray via phone some time early next week.

I too want to say I appreciate Mr. Gray at least attempting to answer some of the many questions that have arisen from this unfortunate event. I don't know that merely taking possession of/destroying what we now believe (hope?) to be the only AWOL cards from this set totally erases all of my concerns regarding this incident, but it does show a willingness on the part of Leaf to not hide under a rock and address customer concerns straight from the top. It was my sincere hope Mr. Gray's delay in a follow-up response was pending the completion of an internal investigation and it appears now that was indeed the case.

We seem to have people all over the map in terms of their take on this, from the "who cares?" category all the way to the "lets burn Brian Gray at the stake!" category. As I indicated from the beginning, I am in neither camp. I, and not just because I own this one card, from the very beginning thought this was something that needed to be addressed by Leaf for anyone who has poured their money into this set (and to a lesser extent any other Leaf product). Unlike a few of you, however, I think there are still as many questions as answers even now which I hope to address with Mr. Gray in the near future. At the same time, I have no vendetta against Mr. Gray personally, he has been cordial in all of his contact with me to date, and in the end, I really still like the concept of this set. I just wish whatever happened here, hadn't happened in the first place as I don't think it would have taken much effort to stop this in its tracks a long time ago with the right security measures.

With all that said, mistakes happen, it was never (for me anyway) the end of the world as we know it, and it's nice to see any company make some attempt to address a problem with its product. I just hope all card companies will learn something from this and take better steps to insure this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future.

Lastly, I hope everyone who collects this set will be doing what I'm doing tomorrow, which is enjoying my 29th Wrestlemania.

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Old 04-07-2013, 09:58 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Wow, interesting read. I dont know if this was mentioned in a earlier post but if you havent seen this yet check this out. Go to youtube and type in "Scott Hall Razor Ramon private signings for american icon" Watch the video and about 1 minute into the video you will see Scott Hall sitting and signing a ton of Leaf Originals cards.

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Old 04-07-2013, 10:06 AM   #130 (permalink)
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I just watched it and at the 1:10 mark there is a stack of red inked auto's that is easily 30 cards high. Perhaps more.

You would think that someone from Leaf would have given him instructions to only sign one card in red.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:37 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpeck100 View Post
I just watched it and at the 1:10 mark there is a stack of red inked auto's that is easily 30 cards high. Perhaps more.

You would think that someone from Leaf would have given him instructions to only sign one card in red.
I paused the video and on top is the black background card.

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Old 04-07-2013, 09:48 PM   #132 (permalink)
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American Icons currently has 2 Scott Hall listed (as well as a large quantity of other Leaf Wrestling auto cards)

Shouldn't those be returned to Leaf also? (and destoyed?)

leaf from americaniconautographs | eBay

Seems a conflict of interest that American Icons would be listing these cards, as they evidently controlled a crucial part of the supply chain for many of cards signed for Leaf Wrestling. Especially since many of the cards (Hogan, Flair, etc) do not appear in quantities in which they should be from boxes of the cards.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:03 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthoemke View Post
American Icons currently has 2 Scott Hall listed (as well as a large quantity of other Leaf Wrestling auto cards)

Shouldn't those be returned to Leaf also? (and destoyed?)

leaf from americaniconautographs | eBay

Seems a conflict of interest that American Icons would be listing these cards, as they evidently controlled a crucial part of the supply chain for many of cards signed for Leaf Wrestling. Especially since many of the cards (Hogan, Flair, etc) do not appear in quantities in which they should be from boxes of the cards.
This same thing happen when Razor (Brian Gray) released Razor Ink Archives. The main selling point hits were very tough to hit. Turned out someone was selling them on an eBay account.......
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:12 AM   #134 (permalink)
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This same thing happen when Razor (Brian Gray) released Razor Ink Archives. The main selling point hits were very tough to hit. Turned out someone was selling them on an eBay account.......
In that case, he bought them all he could have done whatever he wanted with them. I have no problem with that. It's not like he advertised 500 Angelina Jolie autos were going to be packed out.

This situation is different. A certain number of autos were reported to exist, only to find out there are others. Hopefully the OP can get everything cleared up when he speaks with Brian Gray.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:15 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Anything new?
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:54 PM   #136 (permalink)
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None. Was supposed to hear from Mr. Gray today, but didn't. I do know Scott Hall publicly denied any knowledge of what was going on on his twitter account and used the word "shady" to describe whatever "dealer" had done this. Also Mr. Gray indicated on another website the owner of American Icons is not a "card guy", so by implication didn't know what he was doing, which frankly doesn't ring particularly true given American Icons listed all 4 ink (so called 1/1) variations and did so at a much higher price than their blue ink listings.

If anyone is still interested in this card and has a white background blue ink card at this point I'd strongly consider doing a cash/trade deal just to avoid any more headaches. Something very shady is going on here. Worse, everyone is declaring their innocence and no one's guilty. I'd just as soon not continue to waste any more time on this situation. (actually gave up and just decided to list the card elsewhere, too much hassle)

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Old 04-10-2013, 12:06 AM   #137 (permalink)
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In that case, he bought them all he could have done whatever he wanted with them. I have no problem with that. It's not like he advertised 500 Angelina Jolie autos were going to be packed out.

This situation is different. A certain number of autos were reported to exist, only to find out there are others. Hopefully the OP can get everything cleared up when he speaks with Brian Gray.
I guess there is concern in my mind after seeing one of his baseball products lacking the /25 parallels and a certain individual winding up with HUGE quantity. Im not sure that was ever addressed either. I guess give the benefit of the doubt but it appears Leaf isnt doing a great job at making sure the cards get into their products.
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:47 AM   #138 (permalink)
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The bottom line for me about this situation is no matter who did what and regardless of anyone's intent, if Leaf had simply had a better system in place to insure accurate accounting these cards would never have been allowed to go "missing" in the first place. Even giving Mr. Gray every benefit of the doubt (and I'm willing to do that and not suggesting others do otherwise), that to me is inescapable. I'm disappointed in Leaf and will now simply look to find a blue ink white background card with whatever money I obtain from this auction to re-complete my set after this card goes. Based on what happened here, I do not think I'll be interested in buying series 2 of this product.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:29 AM   #139 (permalink)
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Let the bidding begin!

2012 Leaf Originals Wrestling Scott Hall Red Ink 1 1 WWE WWF Auto Razor Ramon | eBay

I hope Leaf will make good on their promise and destroy the remaining red ink cards (and hope that other ones don't turn up).

In any case, the winner will get the most famous card of the set.
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:41 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Interesting that they claim that it was pulled from a case.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:40 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Just for the record, since this already appears to be causing confusion: this is my auction and my understanding is that my card was pulled from a case as I bought it off a break here a few weeks ago and would have no reason to believe someone faked a 5 case break of this product solely to sell this one card.

Everything went downhill from there after American Icon then listed several ink variations of Scott Hall on Ebay and it became apparent my card was one of at least two base image red ink Halls (though Mr. Gray claims he has since retaken possession of and destroyed those American Icons aftermarket "unauthorized" cards FWIW). I was then supposed to receive a call from Mr. Gray yesterday to try to get to the bottom of just what had occurred and try to get some resolution for myself, but did not. (perhaps Mr. Gray was just busy)

In any event, I have basically become tired of dealing with this issue and do not feel the answers provided thus far by Leaf fully satisfy my (or likely many other's) questions or concerns about what happened here. I suspect I am going to lose a lot of money off what I paid for this card because of what was allowed to happen,
with all these Halls having gone "missing" at the signing and without any concrete proof there aren't more "missing" Halls to potentially later turn into additional red or green inks, but I leave that to the conscience of Leaf if that were to happen.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:57 AM   #142 (permalink)
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I have spoken in the past with Sean from American Icon on the phone and I can attest he is not a card guy per say.

That being said many of the cards were being signed at shows where they were hosting autograph signings and Scott Hall was by no means the only person signing cards in their presence.

The man made rarities are nothing new to the hobby and you do not have to be a card expert to understand what the card manufactures are trying to do. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the cards being signed in different colers were meant to be more rare and since so many other performers were doing the same thing I do not think ignorance can be plead in this case.

I do not think you are ever going to get the true answer as Scott Hall is not going to confirm that he stole the cards, American Icon is not going to say they knew that Hall signed more then he was supossed to and Leaf is not going to say they are at fault.

The video doesn't lie he signed a ton of these and quite frankly I doubt Scott Hall even remembers what he signed. You can see the handler flipping him cards and taking them back. Hall is just signing his name constantly and the color of the ink was probably the last thing on his mind.

Good luck with your auction. I think it will sell for more then you think.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:16 AM   #143 (permalink)
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I have read this thread from the beginning and in my opinion the biggest issue here is money. If the card in question here was bought at next to nothing this thread wouldn't even exist. But because you bought on the assumption the card was a 1/1 you paid quite a bit more. It's a jacked up situaiton all the way around don't get me wrong.

About halfway through I started to change my mind about the money thing. But after logging back on today and seeing you are selling the card on Ebay, I now know without a doubt it's about the money.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:37 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Hey guys. Yes this is weird. He will be on Cardboard Connection Radio this Friday. Why not call in and ask so we can all get to the bottom of this?
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:46 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Given the very few amount of Scott Hall cards that made it into packing, I suspect a lot more than 30 cards were "backdoored".

I'd like to hear Brian Gray explain why other cards - such Hogan, Flair and DiBiase - are also so tough to pull from boxes .
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:31 PM   #146 (permalink)
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I have read this thread from the beginning and in my opinion the biggest issue here is money. If the card in question here was bought at next to nothing this thread wouldn't even exist. But because you bought on the assumption the card was a 1/1 you paid quite a bit more. It's a jacked up situaiton all the way around don't get me wrong.

About halfway through I started to change my mind about the money thing. But after logging back on today and seeing you are selling the card on Ebay, I now know without a doubt it's about the money.
While the OP is understadably concerned about his rather sizable investment, the single largest issue here is the integrity of the product as announced by the company as well as the company itself.

Personally, I love the responses by Brian Grey(market) which asks that you call him for details...what, he doesn't want his responses to questions to become public record so that he has plausable deniability?
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:45 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Would a call to someone at Beckett Media be of any help? I would think that if you get even one big name in the card industry to do a story or even start a discussion, it would put pressure on all parties to get the answers you need.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:07 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Suuuuuuuure. I am sure that they would say something against one of their advertisers.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:55 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Hey guys. Yes this is weird. He will be on Cardboard Connection Radio this Friday. Why not call in and ask so we can all get to the bottom of this?
This would be interesting to hear. Of course now it'll be expected, though.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:27 AM   #150 (permalink)
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If it was just about the money, I wouldn't have posted it here in the first place and the thread would have died in 3 or 4 posts. Obviously, the money is what bothered me most initially (and still is something I am annoyed at), but the larger issue here is more as Igman7 stated: "the integrity of the product as announced by the company as well as the company itself. " I own a ton of other Leaf cards. Are they just as unreliable in terms of their stated print run? Were we buying boxes and cases searching for cards that were never intended to be inserted by Leaf, and even worse, aren't what they are purported to be?

Giving again Mr. Gray every benefit of the doubt, this to me is still a major black eye on Leaf for anyone even considering investing in their products now or in the future. If there are no (or at least inadequate) quality control measures to insure 30 cards (that we know of) have gone "missing" and the people you contract with just take "extra" cards from athletes without asking any questions of Leaf to do with as they please, what does that say about your business model?

Maybe Mr. Gray will still come through, maybe he won't, but the larger issue remains, how big of a problem is this and what steps will Leaf take to insure this doesn't happen again in the future?
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