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Old 04-14-2013, 07:40 PM   #176 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone has ever suggested Leaf would want this to happen or knew what it was doing. The latter is the problem for me, i.e. the ineptness displayed on the part of Leaf allowing this to happen in the first place (either because they didn't notice the "missing" Hall cards or because they accidentally let an extra red ink Hall slip into the product when they intended to backdoor them, take your pick).

I honestly don't know what benefit it is for anyone to stick up so vociferously for Leaf at this point, at least on this particular issue. Even Mr. Gray seems to have tacitly acknowledged this was pretty bad. Unfortunately the pass the buck blame game has gone on ever since to Hall to Leaf to American Icons and back again. Mr Gray's company, Mr Gray's ultimate responsibility in my opinion. Not enough has been done if this was my company.

Ps There were supposed to be sp's obviously (Hogan, Flair, Bret, etc). I just don't think Mr. Hall was intended to be one of them, at least not to the extent he has become as it relates to his white background cards. He is part of the yellow /99 set, not the /50. None of the other yellow /99 guys ended up being even slightly sp'ed as far as I can tell. If you think Hall was supposed to be sp'ed more so than Lanny Poffo ok, I'll buy that, but I think he was supposed to be more in the Jake Roberts/Iron Sheik line of guys, not Hogan and Flair. Instead his white background cards have been almost non existent and sold almost exclusively by two sellers even though theres a mile high stack in that video.

Last edited by bullingham; 04-15-2013 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:00 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Certified autograph card control has had some hiccups with Leaf in the past. I opened a pack of 2011 Valiant Baseball that had a Hak-Ju Lee card with no autograph, but the "Authentic Signature" language. It had somehow been hand-packed into a toploader and box without quality control catching the issue: 6 Box Valiant Break...error

With the "authentic autograph" language, anyone pulling that blank card could have tracked down Lee to sign it with a unique ink color...or just signed it themselves.

Obviously mistakes can happen, but if that "authentic autograph" language doesn't connote a precise system to allow someone to trust that whatever signature/inscription/ink color is on the card is coming authentically from the player and officially through the factory, then it puts the other examples of the card into question.

For another example, in 2011, Leaf gave copies of cards to the signing players, imprinted with "player edition" in the blank spot for the autograph. Leaf then also sold some of those cards on eBay. I bought most of the Danny Hultzen Leaf Metal Draft Player Edition cards that Leaf sold directly on eBay. When I received them, I noticed that these cards all state "Authentic Signature" even though they are not autographed. Any unsuspecting person who purchases one of these cards which was later signed by a player (or forged), could easily believe that the signature is guaranteed authentic by Leaf.

Nothing against Leaf...I actually buy lots of Leaf baseball prospect products, but it looks like some systems need to be tightened, and some commonsense applied. I actually still have the unsigned Lee floating around somewhere after the last move.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:22 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Finished at $242.50. That is a good price for the seller in my view after finding out the tough news.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:17 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoos View Post
Certified autograph card control has had some hiccups with Leaf in the past. I opened a pack of 2011 Valiant Baseball that had a Hak-Ju Lee card with no autograph, but the "Authentic Signature" language. It had somehow been hand-packed into a toploader and box without quality control catching the issue: 6 Box Valiant Break...error

With the "authentic autograph" language, anyone pulling that blank card could have tracked down Lee to sign it with a unique ink color...or just signed it themselves.

Obviously mistakes can happen, but if that "authentic autograph" language doesn't connote a precise system to allow someone to trust that whatever signature/inscription/ink color is on the card is coming authentically from the player and officially through the factory, then it puts the other examples of the card into question.

For another example, in 2011, Leaf gave copies of cards to the signing players, imprinted with "player edition" in the blank spot for the autograph. Leaf then also sold some of those cards on eBay. I bought most of the Danny Hultzen Leaf Metal Draft Player Edition cards that Leaf sold directly on eBay. When I received them, I noticed that these cards all state "Authentic Signature" even though they are not autographed. Any unsuspecting person who purchases one of these cards which was later signed by a player (or forged), could easily believe that the signature is guaranteed authentic by Leaf.

Nothing against Leaf...I actually buy lots of Leaf baseball prospect products, but it looks like some systems need to be tightened, and some commonsense applied. I actually still have the unsigned Lee floating around somewhere after the last move.
A very small part of the problem is that nowhere on the wrestling cards do they even say "authentic autograph". The bulk of the problem is with what seems to be lack of control of the product. People are specuating that American Icons are the ones who just decided to keep signed cards, but who is to say that they weren't allowed to do so as part of (or the bulk of) their fees for setting up the signings?
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:49 AM   #180 (permalink)
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In light of the situation the final price could have been a lot worse but I still lost a considerable amount of money.

In the end, 100.00 lost or 300.00 lost, it still calls into question the integrity of the entire product, Leaf and American Icons. Leaf's inaction on this to date has not exactly rebuilt my faith (and I don't mean just their failure to "make things good" with me personally, but the whole duck and cover routine which occurred publicly). Like I said if it was my company and this happened I think Id be bending over backwards to make things right with the customer as well as explain the entire situation publicly to assuage all collectors legitimate concerns about quality control with this (and all of Leafs) product. As a new card company without the same built in trust as a historic company like topps, we will soon see if this inaction leads to the ultimate downfall of Leaf in a downturn in sales of future products.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:01 AM   #181 (permalink)
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*nevermind*
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:43 AM   #182 (permalink)
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Leaf / Bigboydsportscards / Purple Refractors - Page 6

Check post #81 there. He explains another "issue" with cards supposedly going to sources they should not. It is never his fault simply the fault of others.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:16 PM   #183 (permalink)
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re: the purple refractor issue

To me it's just another example of Leaf not having the type of quality control/security measures a company needs to insure this sort of thing doesn't happen (regardless of who actually was at most fault for the act). Leaf produces the cards. Mr. Gray owns Leaf. Mr. Gray is responsible ultimately for any mistakes or errors in the company's products. (and if it's not a mistake, but Mr. Gray knowingly engaging in deliberately shady practices it's not a civil lawsuit he has to worry about, but eventually a criminal complaint, see e.g. William Mastro).

Again, I don't know Mr. Gray. He's been cordial enough to me in our email exchanges. I did (and to an extent still do) like this product as a wrestling fan, but this was a huge black eye on his company which Mr. Gray has not done enough so far to correct/make right. Merely stating Scott Hall took the cards without permission and essentially "what are you going to do about it?" is not enough. Getting the cards back from American Icons was better than nothing, but that's about all it was better than. The fact that Scott Hall has since denied he took the cards and sold them to American Icons only further clouds Leaf's reputation here as well as the print runs of Hall's cards, plus the fact American Icons is still selling Scott Hall cards!

I lost roughly $125 on this for nothing. I'll live, but it'd been nice if Mr. Gray had offered something to insure I was not out of pocket because of this situation which I had no control over. To the larger point however, and one more relevant to everybody who collects Leaf products, there are plenty of questions here that remain which effect the entire integrity of this product and the Leaf company. Unless and until those questions are answered without inconsistencies and from all parties involved, we are left only to wonder, why ever buy or trust a Leaf product again?
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:33 PM   #184 (permalink)
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If you think Hall was supposed to be sp'ed more so than Lanny Poffo ok, I'll buy that, but I think he was supposed to be more in the Jake Roberts/Iron Sheik line of guys, not Hogan and Flair.
No need to drag the Honorable Leapin' Lanny through the mud...

It's interesting to see the auction still take it up to $250 range - way above what I expected. That being said - it's too bad this has turned up. As with most of anything - the cover-up is 10x worse than the actual infraction. The integrity of this product has been severely compromised. I think what we are all disappointed in are the results of execution in consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes - in other another word integrity.

Getting back into the hobby I've liked the wide variety of products across the board. What I really liked about Leaf 2012 Originals was the subject and that I could acquire autos relatively easy. So I started picking up ones here and there from when I was a young tike... Then as I started talking with others on this forum I started to put together Rainbows and complete sets. What really interested me was that there were two wrestlers that I could put together the "only" sets like them. I recently passed up on a alternate signature for KoKo, but passed do to price. Now looking back on it, might have been a good idea since they might not be that limited. There is absolutely know way to be sure unless Leaf releases a press release stating the problem and how it's been solved.

As for Leaf... Wow... I can possible fathom how this could happen and there was no way to protect against it. However if you think about it, if you were going to "forge" a card, this would have been the one to do, due to easibility. Leaf should have known that X amount of cards were not packed. Then for all of the supposed 1/1 alternates on bases that were out there (talking two cards if I am not mistaken - maybe four) put the ole' Leaf gold stamp on it and release to the public that these two cards are in fact the 1/1s.

All that being said there is quite a bit of backlash to Leaf if they take that approach, they have to be able to either eat it or single out where the issue is, thereby burning that bridge(s). At this point I don't see much Leaf can say without opening themselves up to a plethora of other issues and possible litigation. In the ole' proverbial rock and a hard place. But if I recall right at the sports card summit or whatever it was a month or two ago, wasn't Mr. Gray calling out the other companies? Goes back to if you are throwing stones, better not be from a glass house.

Ultimately for me personally I will probably dial back my Leaf purchases now (unless they put in DPeck100 buyback '82 cards) because of this. I tossed around picking up the 2012 Originals case when I was first getting in and was ready to go with their next release in cases quantity to try for a full set. However now I think I'll spend my money elsewhere, unless a satisfactory resolution is made or steps are made to rectify this problem.

Speaking of backdoor transactions... remember the flurry of stuff that came up, at that time I thought it was fishy, now I think it's really fishy...
Flurry of Ebay Leaf Originals

Check out post #19...

Then check out post #40...

Just too much of a coincidence for me. That's just my two cents on this really unfortunate event, worse that it has happened to such a good member.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:37 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I did (and to an extent still do) like this product as a wrestling fan, but this was a huge black eye on his company which Mr. Gray has not done enough so far to correct/make right. Merely stating Scott Hall took the cards without permission and essentially "what are you going to do about it?" is not enough. Getting the cards back from American Icons was better than nothing, but that's about all it was better than.
As I usually say - it's like getting the choice of being stabbed with a knife or a spoon... ummm I don't want either, how about not stabbing me at all.

I get the same gist also bullingham, Leaf tells us consumers umm we took care of it, quit bitching and buy more of stuff...

They are in a bad situation I don't know which is worse, they knew in the beginning and tried to pass it off, or they didn't actually know until you contacted them.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:25 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Anyone read this... I don't recall it being posted:
2012 Leaf Wrestling controversy - Page 2
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:02 PM   #187 (permalink)
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It's funny if you read through the other post BG responds and says how the questions have been answered. Have they? What the hell happened to all of the Tatanka alternate blue, yellow and red variations? I have a legitimate question, yet have got no response via email or on the forum. Weird.


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Anyone read this... I don't recall it being posted:
2012 Leaf Wrestling controversy - Page 2
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:04 PM   #188 (permalink)
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It's funny if you read through the other post BG responds and says how the questions have been answered. Have they? What the hell happened to all of the Tatanka alternate blue, yellow and red variations? I have a legitimate question, yet have got no response via email or on the forum. Weird.
I believe the Tatanka alternate was never issued. I am not 100% but that is what I believe.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:06 PM   #189 (permalink)
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And for further clariffication I don't care about the Tatanka alternate card personally. The fact that all of the color variations seem to have magically disappeared, not been opened or put up for sale, wait American Icons has red 1/5 slabbed for sale, seems odd and raises questions of the products integrity as a whole.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:07 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Tatanka red alternate 1/5 up for sale, by you guessed it American Icons. I smell bs, and I think the federal government needs to get involved

Tatanka Signed 2012 Leaf Originals Pro Wrestling Card PSA DNA Red 1 5 Autograph | eBay

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I believe the Tatanka alternate was never issued. I am not 100% but that is what I believe.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:41 PM   #191 (permalink)
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New name old game. Some people swear by this company and many do not trust. It is obvious what is going on here with this product and some others. Hopefully people will learn.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:10 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Tatanka red alternate 1/5 up for sale, by you guessed it American Icons. I smell bs, and I think the federal government needs to get involved

Tatanka Signed 2012 Leaf Originals Pro Wrestling Card PSA DNA Red 1 5 Autograph | eBay
What a slap in the face.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:40 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I suppose if and when BG ever responds he will say that Tatanka stole these cards as well and then in turn sold them back to American Icons lmfao. The reality is quite simple, at the least American Icons did the private signings and were allowed to keep some of the cards to do with as they wished. I am not on a head hunt as the proud owner of 351 leaf originals and counting, I have about as much invested in this set as anybody.

The low point of it all was when Scott Hall was called a thief. In my opinion he has a defamation case and thanks to it all being online, he has at least 5,000 witnesses. Send me an affidavit, I'm ready to roll lol. Mr. Hall you have my support and the support of many others.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:20 PM   #194 (permalink)
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The low point of it all was when Scott Hall was called a thief.
I think you hit it on the head there - I thought about it a lot and thought how much would he have to gain by trying to do this... 30 cards - 180 apiece... plus he would have to send them all in to PSA to get graded... Talking he would take home $6k max on something like this... just doesn't seem worth all the effort.

Bottom line some got out... we'll never know who, what, when, why, or how... I too love the set (even though you snuck my KoKo out from under me), but not as much as I did - the variations and chases are what made the set something to collect over the years...

Maybe make the Scott Halls even more rare since he'll give us card collectors the finger and never do another signing like this... then he can take his stashed cards and sell them to us who dumped his rare autos because we need one to complete our set...

It's very interesting that in this day and age we can get immediate responses from both sides - not that it cleared anything up, but makes it less of an attempt to call people out if they can respond back on twitter, FB, etc....
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:44 AM   #195 (permalink)
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I will be pretty pissed if this whole situation causes Hall to not do anymore signings. But he like all of us, needs some extra income here and there, so he probably will. I am just wondering why the WWE hasnt had him do a Razor auto for one of their topps products. They should put me in charge of their checklist.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Just to close this thread (as far I go) for anyone following just this thread now or in the future, Leaf's apparent final "solution" was to do nothing more than what you saw here. As a result, and as I just stated in another thread about possible future series of this product:

Other than claiming to have recovered these "unauthorized" copies from it's business associate American Icons (all the while with American Icons continuing to sell Scott Hall Leaf Originals autographs to this very day!), Leaf did nothing other than essentially disavow knowledge and responsibility of this incident and place blame squarely on Scott Hall. For me, the OBVIOUS move by Leaf would have been to admit it was negligent in its quality control in this instance, buy back all Halls in American Icons possession, issue a revised statement about the print runs on any ink variations if necessary, ideally offer me something compensatory to make up for their mistake, and then publicly state what steps the company is going to take going forward to make sure this doesn't happen with future products.

Leaf not only didn't do some of those obvious things, it did NONE of them. I will not be buying any future Leaf products as a result. When you can't trust a company's stated print runs for it's so called limited edition cards, then there really is no reason to trust anything about the company at all, least of all when they do practically nothing to correct such "errors" or at least assure the public HOW this will not happen again in the future and WHY.

So in short, buy from Leaf now and in the future at your own risk.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #197 (permalink)
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I was following this thread and kept checking back for updates on this situation. It is a shame because it is a nice set, I have bought a few "rare" auto's (Billy Graham Variation Green ink and regular yellow #d to 25). I will always keep this thread in mind when buying these autos in the future but I don't think it will turn me away from it. I buy the auto's just to have an auto of my favorite wrestlers from the past, I am not so much into it just to buy the shotest print card I can. It just so happen that I got my Graham autos at what I think was a reasonable price.
I just thought a company like Leaf would of took better measures to make sure this would not of happen in the first place, but then again maybe they knew about it and never thought anyone would realize it....I dont know. but all in all it sucks what happen.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:41 AM   #198 (permalink)
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The Lou Pearlman of cardboard strikessss again....
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