Blowout Cards Forums
Draft Kings

Go Back   Blowout Cards Forums > BLOWOUTS HOBBY TALK > RACING, GOLF & OTHER SPORTS

RACING, GOLF & OTHER SPORTS Post your Other Sports Hobby Talk

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-02-2013, 03:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default uh oh (Leaf Wrestling Scott Hall ink variations not really 1 of 1's???)

As many of you know, I own the Scott Hall red ink base variation card. I have been half interested, half not interested in moving it, due to the high price I paid for this card originally and wanting to do a red ink 1/1 set (though I prefer the alternate version which is what had me sort of interested in disposing of this red ink variation).

Today, I suddenly see on Ebay (you guessed it) another Scott Hall red ink base card encased in a PSA holder. I inquired of the seller how we could both have "1 of 1" cards and was told by this dealer that he bought a bunch of blank (unsigned cards) from Hall himself which Hall then signed for his company and PSA authenticated.

So in short, I am beyond upset about the money spent on this card. Who knows how many Hall red inks are now or soon will be floating around out there and I paid a substantial amount of money for a card based on a claim by Leaf that the Hall red ink was a 1 of 1 which it can no longer verify or back up.

This to me is outrageous in that Leaf allowed (or Scott Hall stole) copies of this card so now the Leaf print run stated on twitter for Hall ink variations is totally erroneous. Moreover, even the blue ink cards are now suspect as Hall may now have signed many more cards than were intended by Leaf for release. This also calls into question the print run of every other card by Leaf in this set, so ink variation owners be forewarned.

I have been in contact with Mr, Gray from Leaf and hope something positive will come of this, but feel the need to warn fellow blowout members that something is amiss with Leaf Wrestling. Perhaps cardcop was right all along about this product, which boggles the mind.
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 03:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
sjim8660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,502
Default

Dang, the only logical explanation is that leaf sent a bunch of cards to Hall to sign and send back and he just kept some for himself to sell off and make some extra money. what makes it interesting is that the cards on ebay are PSA cert, which means hall really did sign them and that means how many other blanks are floating around out there of other wrestlers. I have a bad feeling as a leaf wrestling collector that the value of these leaf cards are about to drop.
sjim8660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 03:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 410
Default

I just noticed the same thing and immediately thought of your card. Please let us know if something comes from leaf.
__________________
http://s747.photobucket.com/albums/xx118/warriordude/
sportsdude11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

So far not much good is going from it. Mr. Gray first questioned whether a print run was ever listed by Leaf for this card and where (that's not a good start). He then denied the seller's claim that Hall (or any wrestler) was given any extra cards for themselves (this may be true as Hall could have stolen them, but the earlier denial there ever was a print run stated by Mr. Gray's company at all for this card is a red flag). Then he questioned (after tacitly acknowledging Leaf did in fact give a print run for this card on it's twitter account) whether I knew there were two 1/1 versions of the red ink (base and alt) which of course I do. EACH card variation was listed as a 1 of 1 by Leaf so there's now 2 of at least the base red ink (and I'm suspecting at least 2 now of all the other Hall ink variants too). I am willing to give Mr. Gray the benefit of the doubt that he will take some action immediately, but this is something I hope his company takes seriously. Not only am I out a lot of money I would not have paid but for Leaf reassurances that this card was a 1/1, but other collectors can and will still be duped in the future by who knows how many cards were signed by Hall (and perhaps other wrestlers) after the fact thereby making the stated print run numbers irrelevant.
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
NewAgeHardcore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 882
Default

How is someone "backdooring" cards Brian Gray's fault?

Did you see all of the superfractors from sheets that were sold on eBay?

You have the true 1/1..
NewAgeHardcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

I think Mr. Gray should have a better system in place to insure each and every card he sends out to be signed by an athlete is accounted for when it's received back by the company (particularly on so called 1/1's). I don't blame him in the moral sense, but how he acts on this will show me a lot about how seriously his company takes matters like this. I would be less angry and impressed if Mr. Gray takes action now on this and then insures this bs (or tries to insure) won't happen with his company in the future. It destroys confidence in the company and its products. I have nothing personal against Mr. Gray. I appreciate he allows people to contact him directly and I like this product a lot in particular. But if I can't trust Leaf's own numbers on so called "one of one" cards how can I trust their numbers on anything else?
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
NewAgeHardcore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 882
Default

I'd be upset too.. but you have to figure Gray sent Hall multiple copies because incase some weren't signed correctly or smeared.
NewAgeHardcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

Possibly. I don't know. I think if I were the company I'd make a contract where the athlete had to send back all cards sent even if damaged/smudged. If a lot suddenly went "missing" I'd question whether something less than honest happened with the extra cards and possibly remove that card from the set.

Again, I am reserving judgment on this as far as Leaf is concerned until I see what sort of action Mr. Gray takes. If it's blown off, I for one won't be buying any more Leaf products now and in the future.
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 04:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
TheHeel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,732
Default

Leaf should buy all of the ones that are unofficial and destroy them.
__________________
48,230
Pending Deals:
TheHeel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 05:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
sjim8660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,502
Default

maybe this sounds crazy, but why don't they send a rep to over see the athlete/wrestler sign the cards. That would ensure authenticity and quality. But card companies are like every other business in the sense of saving money and cutting some corners.
sjim8660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 05:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
Member
 
APAbradshaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 35
Default

There was a picture of Scott Hall signing the cards, so someone from Leaf had to have been present.
APAbradshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 06:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,125
Default

I was gonna say, these were done at a signing and not sent to him. There are lots of stories of wrestlers keeping the cards and randomly making their way to the market. Its not surprising
geoffyb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
Member
 
Zoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6,545
Default

Crazy stuff. Keep us posted. For what it's worth, I would be upset by this too.
__________________
Lifelong St. Louis Cardinals fan. Lifelong Seattle Seahawks fan. John Smoltz collector. Garbage Pail Kids expert.
Fighting hyperbole with logic. 99% accuracy in correctitude.
Twitter: ZoopSoul
Zoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 07:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
Member
 
NewAgeHardcore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffyb View Post
I was gonna say, these were done at a signing and not sent to him. There are lots of stories of wrestlers keeping the cards and randomly making their way to the market. Its not surprising
A few WCW/NWO autos are like that..
NewAgeHardcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 07:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 973
Default

I am usually good at finding items on EBAY and can't seem to locate the item you are referencing. Can you or someone PM me the auction or if it is not against policy post it in the thread.

Thank you.
dpeck100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 07:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 17,755
Default

its not stamped 1/1?
Srt42004n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 08:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

No, none of leafs ink variation cards are serial numbered. You rely on Leafs twitter account release of the print runs after a month or two on the market. In November Leaf listed the card I own as a 1/1 so I paid substantially for it. There may be who knows how many red inks out there now though of at least Hall with no way to distinguish them.

Last edited by bullingham; 04-03-2013 at 02:35 AM.
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 08:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
Member
 
sthoemke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 2,556
Default

If Hall took a quantity of the cards (or was given the cards by Leaf), then than explains why the base cards are so scarce.

Perhaps the quantity on the market will loosen up.
__________________
--------------------------------------
"They got non-smelly fish." - Pete Rose
--------------------------------------
sthoemke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 08:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

That's fine for people who don't have a Hall yet (I suppose) if the market loosens up, but it's bad if you bought one already based on the perceived scarcity and it turns out after the fact there's a ton more even blue inks out there. This seller has sold several blue inks in the past as well and who know's how many times those changed hands. For me though, it is particularly bad in that I paid a substantial amount for, and supposedly invested in, a card the Leaf company itself told the world was a "one of one" card. The could be dozens of red inks out there now of the exact same card with no way of telling mine from any other copy. Who's to say other ink variant Leaf Originals aren't also aftermarket jobs but no one noticed because they weren't listed by Leaf as one of one's?

In any event, I have no idea what, if anything Leaf will be doing in regards to this situation. My last update was that Mr. Gray will be contacting Scott Hall. I don't know how that helps me or any other collector out there who may unknowingly have an aftermarket Hall and paid through the nose for it, but we will see. Again, this news is particularly bad for me as a holder and purchaser of a supposed "one of one" even if mine is in fact the original real deal. Now no one now has any reason to believe mine is the one inserted into boxes or that it's worth anymore than any other base background Hall, thereby cutting the value of my Hall down to who knows what.

By the way, here is the link to the auction. It was ended, but have no idea why.

Scott Hall Signed 2012 Leaf Originals Pro Wrestling Card PSA DNA COA Red Ink SH1 | eBay
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 09:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

By the way, heres Hall signing these at an American Icon autographs signing of some sorts. Look at that stack!!! American Icon autographs was the one listing the after market 1 of 1 red ink, so unless Leaf was also at that signing, Hall took and signed all those cards which means all Hall owners have been screwed by Leaf's lack of accounting. Go to about 58 seconds into this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgOXD6bFJYg
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 09:35 PM   #21 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 973
Default

There are quite a few photos on the American Icon Facebook page of the various wrestlers signing Leaf cards for this set.

I am not trying to throw salt on an open wound but buying man made rarities is a dangerous game.

The only thing supposedly rare about your card is he signed it in a different color ink.

You used the term investing and the problem with doing so in a set like this is there are so many close substitutes. In total I am sure there were hundreds of cards signed per wrestler and this limits the upside of all of the cards and especially those that are supposed to be the most rare.

Unfortunately I think you are not in good shape here.

The auction was ended early for two potential reasons. One Leaf contacted them and asked for it to be taken down and work out a deal with them or someone offered them a reasonable offer off EBAY and they accepted. I would think the second is more probable then the first.

If you want to invest in a Scott Hall autograph find yourself a Mint or better WCW auto and get it graded or buy one in a graded holder. That is the only Scott Hall auto that you can use the term investment with.
dpeck100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 09:36 PM   #22 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 266
Default

Just inquired with the seller on Ebay about the cards. He responded as follows: "We bought the cards from Scott Hall. We are sending them back to Leaf."

Of course, it doesn't answer the question of how many other people has Hall sold these to, but at least we know they are being returned.
__________________
Collecting primarily pre-1980s non-sport, wrestling and regional issue basketball, baseball and football
http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r387/booyahlaw/
booyahlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 09:41 PM   #23 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 973
Default

I guess the first is the answer.

Hopefully Leaf is buying them all back.

Either way this is not good news for this product.

I hope this works out well for those who have put their hard earned money behind it.
dpeck100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 09:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 266
Default

As someone eluded to before, even the sets like WCW/NWO had this problem. To my knowledge, guys like whipwreck and others who were not in packs held onto these cards and got them in the stream of commerce after the release. Doesn't mean the cards are worthless, by any means. Although I would imagine it will give some people pause in collecting the ink variations as a whole.

With that Leaf signing at American Icons, it appears that signing was done in July 2012. Depending on when they bought them from Hall, it seems like they may have been sitting on these for awhile.
__________________
Collecting primarily pre-1980s non-sport, wrestling and regional issue basketball, baseball and football
http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r387/booyahlaw/
booyahlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 10:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 663
Default

This would be more reassuring news that Leaf is trying except that the seller is continuing to run an active listing on a Scott Hall green ink 1/1 in a psa holder and a Scott hall blue ink base. Why would anyone believe the green in particular is any more an original 1/1 than the red ink when it's being sold by the same seller? Why weren't those auctions also removed?

The card business and the wrestling business mixed as one, yikes.
bullingham is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/racing-golf-other-sports/485610-uh-oh-leaf-wrestling-scott-hall-ink-variations-not-really-1-1s.html
Posted By For Type Date
2012 Leaf Wrestling controversy This thread Pingback 04-05-2013 03:27 PM
Any summit news on Leaf Wrestling for 2013???? This thread Pingback 04-05-2013 02:38 PM
TCS Daily - Thursday - April 4th, 2013 This thread Refback 04-04-2013 07:26 PM
TCS Daily - Thursday - April 4th, 2013 This thread Refback 04-04-2013 04:02 PM
TCS Daily - Thursday - April 4th, 2013 This thread Refback 04-04-2013 02:54 PM
TCS Daily - Thursday - April 4th, 2013 This thread Refback 04-04-2013 02:21 PM
TCS Daily - Thursday - April 4th, 2013 This thread Refback 04-04-2013 02:06 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
Copyright 2013, Blowout Cards Inc.