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Old 08-10-2014, 03:32 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Easy there Turbo! I fully respect your knowledge of racing and fully acknowledge my own ignorance of the sport - specifically dirt track.

However, in my own defense, my comments were made based upon reading several articles such as http://www.sportingnews.com/nascar/s...len-kevin-ward

What I find interesting is that 90% of the articles on this tragedy rely heavily on quotes from Tyler Graves, who is both a Sprintcar racer and a friend of Ward. Most of them use the following quote:

"Tony pinched him into the frontstretch wall, a racing thing," Graves said. "The right rear tire went down, he spun on the exit of (Turn) 2. They threw the caution and everything was toned down. Kevin got out of his car. He was throwing his arms up all over the place at Tony for most of the corner...

...I know Tony could see him. I know how you can see out of these cars. When Tony got close to him, he hit the throttle. When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways. It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two and then it threw him about 50 yards."

But few of them are are using his quote (found at the bottom of the article linked above):

"Tony Stewart needs to be put in prison for life," Graves said."
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So while anyone is free to disagree with my take on the accident, please don't say that it is wholly ignorant or only held by ignorant people. Let's aim for constructive dialogue. I don't believe that Tony Stewart is a murderer - I believe he foolishly tried to send a message to another individual who was acting foolishly and that message got out of hand and left someone dead - hence accidental manslaughter, but not murder.
So you're basing your whole argument on the words from a friend of the guy who was killed?
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:33 PM   #177 (permalink)
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do you really believe this was premeditated by Stewart and he intended to kill Ward?

what you should have said is, "but as many have wildly speculated based on no facts...." people are reading into it what they want to see. was Stewart trying to intimidate Ward or was he trying to avoid him?

i don't even know if they can charge manslaughter here. aggressive behavior is part of sports, even racing. and it will be tough to prove other elements such as being reckless on a race track.

one thing we do know for sure is that if Ward had stayed in his car, or at least not chased after Stewart, he'd most likely be alive today.

i doubt anyone is taking it lightly and thinking "oops." but it goes a little far in the other direction to suggest Stewart is a murderer.
Bingo! One of the most intelligent posts on this thread. Based on limited video so far people are just interpreting what they want to see. Hopefully more evidence comes out, such as the video from the GoPro camera mounted inside the car, to show what exactly happened. However it may be really tough to prove intent or negligence. Many people have made the statement he is a professional driver so he would have full control over his car at all times and never make a mistake. This is incorrect. Many professional drivers have lost control over their cars (even sometimes under caution) on concrete tracks with perfect conditions. And these are far from perfect conditions, this is on a dirt track at night with a pedestrian walking out onto the track. As others have explained dirt track cars are handled differently from regular stock cars. More evidence needs to come out before we make a determination. Did Tony simply make a mistake in the handling of his vehicle? Was he trying to avoid the guy? Was he trying to get close to him to scare him and throw some dirt in his face to make a point? We really don't know at this point which of these it is.
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:44 PM   #178 (permalink)
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the sheriff was just live on espn news and as of right now there he says there is no evidence that anything was intentional and no evidence of a crime being committed. cars were going approximately 35 mph at the time of the accident which are inside the ruled during the caution.
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:51 PM   #179 (permalink)
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It sucks that the guy probably spent the last moments of his life dropping F-bombs.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:30 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Bottom line: There's enough here to warrant charges and a trial. No trial = outrage. If they have a proper criminal trial, we should all be able to live with the verdict.
Yeah OK.....thanks Johnny Cochrane for your input, not going to happen.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:34 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Who says he tried to intimidate the kid?...he could have been trying to speed up to avoid him. No one knows for sure what he was thinking or what he did, let's relax on the speculation. This thread is all over the place, from the moment it was started you would have thought Stewart was OJ Simpson (bad example, he was innocent). Looks like an accident to me, and I will be surprised if he is ever charged. The guilt is what he'll have to deal with.

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True he should've stayed in his vehicle. (Feels like Zimmerman all over again....)

But as many have pointed out, Tony appears to have been trying to intimidate the kid. Any aggressive behavior on Tony's part makes him culpable for the death of Ward. That's manslaughter. There's no such thing as "oops" a kid is dead.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:35 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Am I the only one who wants Benshobbies take on this?
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:44 PM   #183 (permalink)
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i watched the video like 5 times, the kid got out of the car and almost runs right into the 1st car that goes by and it was hard to tell but it looked like it swerved out of the way a lil to not hit him! then he goes towards stewart but the angle changes and u hear him gun it and the back tire goes to the inside of the track

there was an article that said the view to the side of a sprint car is bad but if u factor in that it was dark and the guy was wearing darker clothes stewart likely didn't see him until the last second or until he hit him
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:53 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Such a tragic accident! Only 2 people know what happened, Ward and Stewart. All the media attention, Stewarts past, the same video everyone is posting on you tube like its different and all the speculation will be all we have to make our own opinions. Let's just try not to get into pissing matches with each other, cause at the end of the day it's not worth and we need to just realize a life was lost to soon!
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:58 PM   #185 (permalink)
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On the caution laps, all the drivers are proceeding at the bottom line of the the track. When you look at the position of the driver that was killed, as he is standing still on the track, the #45 white car passes him without issue and then Stewart strikes him after the left turn. When you swing left the back end of the race car swings . In the video, you can see the back end of Stewart's car swing in toward the bottom of the track on his higher line as he moved toward the deceased driver. Disgusting and reckless.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:05 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Am I the only one who wants Benshobbies take on this?
He would say Stewart will be the commissioner of NASCAR, and also the artificial dirt the drivers were racing on is to blame.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:12 PM   #187 (permalink)
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No one with any intelligence thinks that Stewart intentionally hit Ward. Based on witness reports, Stewart's past actions, and video that shows Stewart apply the gas while in the vicinity of Ward, it is REASONABLE to assume that Stewart wanted to scare Ward by revving the engine close to him. I have NO DOUBT that Stewart intended no harm to Ward, and only wanted to intimidate him with the car.

THAT BEING SAID...

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Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention.
Just because Stewart didn't intend to kill Ward DOES NOT mean that he isn't (or shouldn't be) legally liable for his death. If a person fires off a gun meant only to scare someone but the bullet ends up striking someone else and killing them, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.

At the very least, there is enough evidence that there SHOULD be some kind of grand jury trial to see if Stewart should face criminal charges (which in my opinion he should).
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:16 PM   #188 (permalink)
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No one with any intelligence thinks that Stewart intentionally hit Ward. Based on witness reports, Stewart's past actions, and video that shows Stewart apply the gas while in the vicinity of Ward, it is REASONABLE to assume that Stewart wanted to scare Ward by revving the engine close to him. I have NO DOUBT that Stewart intended no harm to Ward, and only wanted to intimidate him with the car.

THAT BEING SAID...



Just because Stewart didn't intend to kill Ward DOES NOT mean that he isn't (or shouldn't be) legally liable for his death. If a person fires off a gun meant only to scare someone but the bullet ends up striking someone else and killing them, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.

At the very least, there is enough evidence that there SHOULD be some kind of grand jury trial to see if Stewart should face criminal charges (which in my opinion he should).
What you fail to acknowledge is that Ward wasn't hit in a farmers market or sidewalk. He intentionally got out of his vehicle on a live racetrack and stepped in front of racing vehicles.

If he were walking his dog in the park and Stewart hits him, then that's criminal.

Would you arrest a guy who tackles a guy in the NFL so hard it ends up killing him?
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:21 PM   #189 (permalink)
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No one with any intelligence thinks that Stewart intentionally hit Ward. Based on witness reports, Stewart's past actions, and video that shows Stewart apply the gas while in the vicinity of Ward, it is REASONABLE to assume that Stewart wanted to scare Ward by revving the engine close to him. I have NO DOUBT that Stewart intended no harm to Ward, and only wanted to intimidate him with the car.

THAT BEING SAID...

Just because Stewart didn't intend to kill Ward DOES NOT mean that he isn't (or shouldn't be) legally liable for his death. If a person fires off a gun meant only to scare someone but the bullet ends up striking someone else and killing them, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.

At the very least, there is enough evidence that there SHOULD be some kind of grand jury trial to see if Stewart should face criminal charges (which in my opinion he should).
On point again.

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What you fail to acknowledge is that Ward wasn't hit in a farmers market or sidewalk. He intentionally got out of his vehicle on a live racetrack and stepped in front of racing vehicles.

If he were walking his dog in the park and Stewart hits him, then that's criminal.

Would you arrest a guy who tackles a guy in the NFL so hard it ends up killing him?
You seem to be loosely defining what happened. Then on the rest of your comments, I do not deal in analogies and would like to talk only about the details of what actually occurred.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:24 PM   #190 (permalink)
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What you fail to acknowledge is that Ward wasn't hit in a farmers market or sidewalk. He intentionally got out of his vehicle on a live racetrack and stepped in front of racing vehicles.

If he were walking his dog in the park and Stewart hits him, then that's criminal.

Would you arrest a guy who tackles a guy in the NFL so hard it ends up killing him?
Your first paragraph is a point that Stewart's lawyers would argue in his defense during the grand jury testimony. My only point is that there is enough evidence in this case that there should at the very least be a trial to determine if Stewart committed a crime. I'm not speaking on his guilt or innocence, but merely stating that there should be a trial.

As to the NFL guy, I would need more evidence to say, such as did the player go outside of the normal act of tackling the ball carrier (like slam his head down into the turf, stomp on his head if the helmet came off, etc...). If that did not happen, the no. IMO, what Stewart did fell outside of the normal act of racing and therefor deserves to be investigated.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:25 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Your first paragraph is a point that Stewart's lawyers would argue in his defense during the grand jury testimony. My only point is that there is enough evidence in this case that there should at the very least be a trial to determine if Stewart committed a crime. I'm not speaking on his guilt or innocence, but merely stating that there should be a trial.

As to the NFL guy, I would need more evidence to say, such as did the player go outside of the normal act of tackling the ball carrier (like slam his head down into the turf, stomp on his head if the helmet came off, etc...). If that did not happen, the no. IMO, what Stewart did fell outside of the normal act of racing and therefor deserves to be investigated.
It fell out side of the normal act because a guy walked onto the race track.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:32 PM   #192 (permalink)
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It fell out side of the normal act because a guy walked onto the race track.
So because he walked out onto the racetrack, that gives Stewart carte blanche in his actions? Ward was definitely in the wrong to walk onto the racetrack. Stewart was in the wrong for trying to intimidate him by revving his engine. Both of those fall outside the normal racing act, but only one caused a person to die.

Using my earlier example, if a person shoved John and John pulled out his gun to scare him and accidentally stuck and killed someone, do you think that getting shoved by that person should exonerate John from criminal liability for the accidental death?
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:33 PM   #193 (permalink)
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RIP Kevin Ward
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:35 PM   #194 (permalink)
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It fell out side of the normal act because a guy walked onto the race track.
Probably coincidence that the car before passed by without issue and yet Steward stuck him as he was standing in the same spot; Stewart just also happen to be the racer that was a part of the crash before the caution flag.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:38 PM   #195 (permalink)
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Just because Stewart didn't intend to kill Ward DOES NOT mean that he isn't (or shouldn't be) legally liable for his death. If a person fires off a gun meant only to scare someone but the bullet ends up striking someone else and killing them, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.
Even if criminal court turns a blind eye to this (which, sadly, I believe they will because of his status and seeming unlimited funds)...a civil court judge will probably have a field day with this.

Little to no consolation for the family as money won't bring him back...but it's just disgusting to see how Stewart (who was already a well known scumbag) pretty much gave the big middle finger to KW and his family by racing today like nothing ever happened.

He lost his temper and tried to send a message to the kid by kicking up dirt, lost control...and killed a man. The caution lap was already signalled well before KW died, and Stewart was wayyyy too far out in the center of the track and not hugging the inner lane as every driver (let alone one with decades of experience) knows to do in these situations. It's to avoid any potential humans/ and or wrecked car debris, for crying out loud.

He knew damn well what he was doing.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:39 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Tragic accident. Hope this mans soul was eternally secure.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:41 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Probably coincidence that the car before passed by without issue and yet Steward stuck him as he was standing in the same spot; Stewart just also happen to be the racer that was a part of the crash before the caution flag.
I'll have to watch the video again but are you referring to the one where he backed away as it came towards him? Because I'm pretty sure he didn't back away from Stewart's car as it headed towards him.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:42 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Even if criminal court turns a blind eye to this (which, sadly, I believe they will because of his status and seeming unlimited funds)...a civil court judge will probably have a field day with this.

Little to no consolation for the family as money won't bring him back...but it's just disgusting to see how Stewart (who was already a well known scumbag) pretty much gave the big middle finger to KW and his family by racing today like nothing ever happened.

He lost his temper and tried to send a message to the kid by kicking up dirt, lost control...and killed a man. The caution lap was already signalled well before KW died, and Stewart was wayyyy too far out in the center of the track and not hugging the inner lane as every driver (let alone one with decades of experience) knows to do in these situations. It's to avoid any potential humans/ and or wrecked car debris, for crying out loud.

He knew damn well what he was doing.
He did not race today. He withdrew just before the race.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:56 PM   #199 (permalink)
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So because he walked out onto the racetrack, that gives Stewart carte blanche in his actions? Ward was definitely in the wrong to walk onto the racetrack. Stewart was in the wrong for trying to intimidate him by revving his engine. Both of those fall outside the normal racing act, but only one caused a person to die.

Using my earlier example, if a person shoved John and John pulled out his gun to scare him and accidentally stuck and killed someone, do you think that getting shoved by that person should exonerate John from criminal liability for the accidental death?
A court would likely rule that Ward assumed the risk of stepping in front of a moving vehicle.

Presumed attempt to intimidate is a weak stretch.

Your gun analogy is silly. Apples and oranges. By pulling out his gun and discharging his weapon without just reason, he is breaking numerous laws.

Inadvertently clipping a person on a live racetrack is tragic, but not illegal nor should Ward's family be awarded and any money from a civil case because he's the one that walked in front of live race cars.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:01 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Inadvertently clipping a person on a live racetrack is tragic, but not illegal nor should Ward's family be awarded and any money from a civil case because he's the one that walked in front of live race cars.
For the sake of argument, let's say that Stewart did in fact rev his engine in an attempt to scare Ward, which caused his car to spin and hit Ward (which is what I would want a grand jury to determine). Do you think that Stewart bears no responsibility in that instance for his actions?
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