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Old 07-13-2011, 03:13 AM   #26 (permalink)
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How on earth does a trade manager prevent scams?
It does not. This isn't my opinion, it is a fact. A trade manager helps the traders keep track of there trades, and exchanges mailing info between the two parties. It does not prevent scams at all whatsoever. The exact same thing can be accomplished by saving your pms, until the transaction is finished, and feedback has been exchanged.

Another point, the middle man would need to be someone who has extensive knowledge on how the postal system works. In other words, the middle man would need to know how to be fully covered, should a problem arise (lost or damaged package) after he has shipped both ends of the transaction.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:21 PM   #27 (permalink)
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It does not. This isn't my opinion, it is a fact. A trade manager helps the traders keep track of there trades, and exchanges mailing info between the two parties. It does not prevent scams at all whatsoever. The exact same thing can be accomplished by saving your pms, until the transaction is finished, and feedback has been exchanged.

Another point, the middle man would need to be someone who has extensive knowledge on how the postal system works. In other words, the middle man would need to know how to be fully covered, should a problem arise (lost or damaged package) after he has shipped both ends of the transaction.
This ^^^^ is a good point. I wrote in the insurance portion, and given this point here I think if a middle man were to be used that it should become mandatory even for the traders sake. Thanks Lemur.
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:27 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I belive there was only one question raised and I believe I answered it already.

here is the answer I gave in my original response posted below.

Deals are already going bad every day, and yes a delay can happen, but there are deals which also have taken longer than 30 days with cards gone, and or other merchandise so you are taking the same risk with no middle man as you are with one. No difference at all other than two people sending to one person, and not a 1 to 1 trade.

Did I miss another concern of yours?
You still haven't addressed anything my post covered. Please read it again, as that potential issue is still there.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
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You still haven't addressed anything my post covered. Please read it again, as that potential issue is still there.
Can the middle man end up being a scammer? Possibly

All bboi is trying to do is propose a possible solution to a recurring problem within this hobby. Is it foolproof? That is an impossibility but it is at least an idea.

The only thing to do is test it out.

I think the general framework is there and can be amended as it progresses.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:54 PM   #30 (permalink)
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How on earth does a trade manager prevent scams?

What it comes down to is two newbs sending at the same time to each other, so a trade manager accomplishes nothing.
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It does not. This isn't my opinion, it is a fact. A trade manager helps the traders keep track of there trades, and exchanges mailing info between the two parties. It does not prevent scams at all whatsoever. The exact same thing can be accomplished by saving your pms, until the transaction is finished, and feedback has been exchanged.

Another point, the middle man would need to be someone who has extensive knowledge on how the postal system works. In other words, the middle man would need to know how to be fully covered, should a problem arise (lost or damaged package) after he has shipped both ends of the transaction.
You are both right, I guess it wouldn't help. Since we all know that now, I WILL NOT make a deal or a sale that has to involve a "middle man"!! The so-called middle man could have 1,000 feedback & 100% positive and still have something go wrong. Who would be responsible for that? Seller/trader or buyer/tradee?? I am responsible for my own dealings & know how to judge the perspective other party.
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:02 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Perhaps this was mentioned, I'm a bit late to the party, and while I didn't catch this it may have been brought up. . .

Perhaps this could be useful for trades, but Paypal will always side with the buyer in a dispute in this situation because the items sent will never be shipped to their confirmed address. Unless you used a middle man for the payments too, which just seems like it's asking for trouble.

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Old 07-13-2011, 04:58 PM   #32 (permalink)
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You still haven't addressed anything my post covered. Please read it again, as that potential issue is still there.
Ok. Here is your original post below: I highlighted what I think may be the questions and answered them in order from top to bottom below your post.

Even if you assumed that absolutely none of the deals would result in a scam by the middle man, which is completely untrue as is, what happens when there is a small problem, such as a delay? Invariably, the middle man would get his/her share of the blame with the deal as well. It only takes one deal to go bad for the reputation of that middle man to be ruined as well. There really is too much risk involved there.

1. I NEVER assume anything. Can a deal go wrong- Yes, but I do think this will significantly cut down (Not Eliminate)the scams happening. Please keep in mind I have not been scammed here at all. I have had a few people back out of deals, but that's not scamming. Bottom line I would use it for high end trades as it is much safer.

2. Delay's are only in an emergency, and must be verified so we know the guy didnt go on a fishing trip when he could have sent the cards. The original post is revised as well so you would want to re-read it also to see the additions.

3. yes he would, No one said a middle man was untouchable, but that's why all the video precautions, along with packaging on video need to be there. if the middle man packages on video, then both traders know all he/she has to do is go to the post office and drop it off. The dc signature confirmation and insurance is also on both packages so everyone is completely covered.

4. The mods have the right to kick anyone they deem off the list & the forum for that matter, and the forum members would obviously alert anyone to some type of bad deal. Also there would (hopefully) be a new option in the itrader section for just the middle men so that if a deal went wrong for some reason everyone would be able to see it. The combo of someone coming off the list, and bad feedback that way as well should make it easy for someone to research the middle man prior to using them.

Hope this addresses all of your concerns.

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Perhaps this was mentioned, I'm a bit late to the party, and while I didn't catch this it may have been brought up. . .

Perhaps this could be useful for trades, but Paypal will always side with the buyer in a dispute in this situation because the items sent will never be shipped to their confirmed address. Unless you used a middle man for the payments too, which just seems like it's asking for trouble.

Jon
In a trade with a middle man there are layers of security that are taken so that everyone is covered.

1. This is only for trades. No sense in it for purchases, just don't pay gift and you're good to go.

2. The traders are required to use signature confirmation & have insurance on their product which will protect them against postal damage, and loss. The packages also must be videoed and watched by both parties to verify the trade and packaging into the provided bubble mailers. Then all the middle man has to do is ship. That simple.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:42 PM   #33 (permalink)
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2. The traders are required to use signature confirmation & have insurance on their product which will protect them against postal damage, and loss. The packages also must be videoed and watched by both parties to verify the trade and packaging into the provided bubble mailers. Then all the middle man has to do is ship. That simple.
All sounds good until this #2 part. May bae great for high dollar deals, $100 or more but some of us don't have camcorder or webcams to video tape packages. Insurance & Sig confirmation may be alright if you can do right around same shipping price but truthfully I don't see 65% of this forum jumping on board with the idea of all that since most haven't had problems or at least too many problems...Just my opinion though!!
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:00 PM   #34 (permalink)
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All sounds good until this #2 part. May bae great for high dollar deals, $100 or more but some of us don't have camcorder or webcams to video tape packages. Insurance & Sig confirmation may be alright if you can do right around same shipping price but truthfully I don't see 65% of this forum jumping on board with the idea of all that since most haven't had problems or at least too many problems...Just my opinion though!!
Keep in mind this is meant for high dollar deals where even if you didnt use a middle man you should do these things anyway. The cam corder is meant for the middle man to use to record, not the traders. All the traders have to do is watch the video and confirm that indeed this is what was agreed upon in the trade, and then they also confirm that the middle man re-packed on video as well. This way like I said all the middle man has to do is ship. No reason not to ship if ou packed up the stuff on video already.

Most of us don't have problems, but honestly how many times do you see a thread pop up and it's for a decent chunk of money. This will avoid all that.
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:14 PM   #35 (permalink)
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The cam corder is meant for the middle man to use to record, not the traders.
I was waiting for you to say this. So you are basically saying the middle men have to jump through all these hoops and be deemed "trustworthy" enough to be a middle man but yet you don't trust them to the extent that you want them to video themselves when dealing with the packages?
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I was waiting for you to say this. So you are basically saying the middle men have to jump through all these hoops and be deemed "trustworthy" enough to be a middle man but yet you don't trust them to the extent that you want them to video themselves when dealing with the packages?
Why would you even try to twist my words like that? I am trying to provide a solution to a problem that occurs weekly here. "I" am not saying anything about "Not Trusting the middleman".

Thats like me saying: "So you don't trust me enough to send $300 dollars worth of cards without DC"? WTF

^^^^^This is exactly why this type of thing is needed. If everyone were trust worthy this would never come up would it? Do you see how everyone automatically drops the hammer on the middleman in this thread? Who do you really think is not trusting me, or the others who have commented already?

As much as I love people, and there are plenty of excellent ones here, this is business, and in business I don't trust anyone. I cover my back on all angles. I only do certain things with traders I have done many many deals with. not with newbs or low feedback, or even some older member I haven't done business with yet. it's just the best business practice in a forum where you are not trading face to face.

I mean no one here disrespect, but like I said friends are friends, and fun is fun, but when the deal goes down you won't be seeing me not covering my butt.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:06 PM   #37 (permalink)
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bboi,

I certainly appreciate the effort you are putting in here. A middle man can be a handy tool in many trading situations, especially ones that you feel tentative about. I am certainly not volunteering to be in that roll here (and I don't fit your criteria anyway), but I have done it in the past as a favor for other members. All you are saying in this, and I don't know why people are having such a difficult time grasping this, will be summed up in this singles ad type summary I have put below.

Card Collector seeking fellow trustworthy brethren to assist in facilitating a trade. Must be trustworthy, smart and experienced. Like long walks on the beach and sleeping under the stars. For friendship maybe more.


Those aren't hoops bboi is talking about jumping through. They are precautionary measures.

Nice job bboi. I hope this works out.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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bboi,

I certainly appreciate the effort you are putting in here. A middle man can be a handy tool in many trading situations, especially ones that you feel tentative about. I am certainly not volunteering to be in that roll here (and I don't fit your criteria anyway), but I have done it in the past as a favor for other members. All you are saying in this, and I don't know why people are having such a difficult time grasping this, will be summed up in this singles ad type summary I have put below.

Card Collector seeking fellow trustworthy brethren to assist in facilitating a trade. Must be trustworthy, smart and experienced. Like long walks on the beach and sleeping under the stars. For friendship maybe more.


Those aren't hoops bboi is talking about jumping through. They are precautionary measures.

Nice job bboi. I hope this works out.
LOL no one here could have said it better Corbin! You da man lol.

Good to see you back and hope all is well with you. You drove home what I was trying to explain to these guys.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:31 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I think there should be several middle men. That way both traders can pick the one person that they are both comfortable with.

If I had a high value trade with a relatively unknown trader, I would jump at this option. Actually, in this situation, I now know that I can contact bboi30 as my middle man.

Great idea. Not sure it can be effectively regulated, but great nonetheless.

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I was waiting for you to say this. So you are basically saying the middle men have to jump through all these hoops and be deemed "trustworthy" enough to be a middle man but yet you don't trust them to the extent that you want them to video themselves when dealing with the packages?
If I were a middleman, I would video these things for MY OWN PROTECTION. I would video the packages as received, the contents in detail, and the repackaging. Then I would post it privately on youtube and send only the 2 parties the link.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:19 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I think there should be several middle men. That way both traders can pick the one person that they are both comfortable with.

If I had a high value trade with a relatively unknown trader, I would jump at this option. Actually, in this situation, I now know that I can contact bboi30 as my middle man.

Great idea. Not sure it can be effectively regulated, but great nonetheless.



If I were a middleman, I would video these things for MY OWN PROTECTION. I would video the packages as received, the contents in detail, and the repackaging. Then I would post it privately on youtube and send only the 2 parties the link.
Thanks for the Support Chris. I would love something like this to come into play, but we'll see what the mods & admins say about it.

I would love to see if they could respond in the thread or privately to me by PM to see if we can make it happen. I appreciate your words.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:46 PM   #41 (permalink)
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How about if you are saying that there should be extra money involved with paying the extra insurance and sig conf, why not use that money to both buy each other's cards through paypal, say if both cards are worth $100, you both send $100 GOODS to each other through paypal, and still use the insurance. That way if something goes very wrong, you have the insurance to cover you in the mail, and file a paypal claim if the package isn't sent. Seems like a better deal for your money than shipping it to a middle man to be shipped again.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:13 PM   #42 (permalink)
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How about if you are saying that there should be extra money involved with paying the extra insurance and sig conf, why not use that money to both buy each other's cards through paypal, say if both cards are worth $100, you both send $100 GOODS to each other through paypal, and still use the insurance. That way if something goes very wrong, you have the insurance to cover you in the mail, and file a paypal claim if the package isn't sent. Seems like a better deal for your money than shipping it to a middle man to be shipped again.
Well if that was the case we wouldn't be having this discussion if everyone had the money to buy and not trade. Besides insurance and signature confirmation cost is 7-10 dollars total and you get the same protection with the insurance going up to a whopping 5k. I Highly doubt people will be trading 5k cards anytime soon lol.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:22 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Well if that was the case we wouldn't be having this discussion if everyone had the money to buy and not trade. Besides insurance and signature confirmation cost is 7-10 dollars total and you get the same protection with the insurance going up to a whopping 5k. I Highly doubt people will be trading 5k cards anytime soon lol.
If you are trading, you both pay $100 to each other, you only lose the $3.20 of fees, instead of spending the extra $4 for shipping the second package
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:56 PM   #44 (permalink)
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If you are trading, you both pay $100 to each other, you only lose the $3.20 of fees, instead of spending the extra $4 for shipping the second package
I see what you mean, but the same point comes into play. If people had that much to spend why wouldn't they just buy it outright from each other and save the hassle? This approach would not work becuase people would just be buying and there would be almost no trading going on.

I would prefer to buy but sometimes I can't so trading works well for me as it does for others. I just don't see this making any practical sense. Not ripping your idea, just pointing out the reason why it wouldn't make sense.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:58 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I see what you mean, but the same point comes into play. If people had that much to spend why wouldn't they just buy it outright from each other and save the hassle? This approach would not work becuase people would just be buying and there would be almost no trading going on.

I would prefer to buy but sometimes I can't so trading works well for me as it does for others. I just don't see this making any practical sense. Not ripping your idea, just pointing out the reason why it wouldn't make sense.
You don't need to have the money, if you send $100 and receive $100 in return, it doesn't really matter if you had the money to start with.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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You don't need to have the money, if you send $100 and receive $100 in return, it doesn't really matter if you had the money to start with.
How would it not matter if you didn't have the $100 to send?

Example: Say I only have $20 bucks in paypal. I couldn't do this because I don't have enough funds. See what I mean.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:01 PM   #47 (permalink)
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How about if you are saying that there should be extra money involved with paying the extra insurance and sig conf, why not use that money to both buy each other's cards through paypal, say if both cards are worth $100, you both send $100 GOODS to each other through paypal, and still use the insurance. That way if something goes very wrong, you have the insurance to cover you in the mail, and file a paypal claim if the package isn't sent. Seems like a better deal for your money than shipping it to a middle man to be shipped again.
How do you prevent someone from just keeping your $100? If you send your money first and they never send their money. Not saying you won't win a paypal claim but that is not 100% guaranteed.

The idea of the middle man is to put an impartial third party that would be trusted by the two people trading. Doing the paypal cash way still leaves you dealing with someone you are unsure of.

How many people have made a bet with someone and both of you handed your money to a third party to guarantee that the money would go to the winner of the bet? This is the exact same thing.
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