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Old 07-12-2011, 02:30 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default For any trade, but mostly for high dollar a way to stop scammers

Hi Guys. I was thinking about this a while back, and while the scams keep coming and the sticky is cool, I think there should be a section that has an approved middle man list for high dollar trades or really any trade if someone should want to go that route.

Here is a proposed set of steps to make this happen.

1. A person would submit their name for entrance into the list, and a forum vote would have to be cast in order for that person to be approved as a middle man. The vote would have to be public so people know who voted and know it's not rigged, and the pole would have to be 72 hours long.

2. Members who volunteer for the list should also have tenure of 1 year or more here and have to have proven log in on a daily basis which can be verified by a mod or admin, so that we know they are reliable. They also would need to have 100+ feedback with a 100% perfect rating (no negs or neutrals) (dubbed the 100/100 rule) and nothing less to even be considered for the list.

3. Both traders must provide a self addressed (unsealed) bubble mailer with signature confirmation & insurance (No Exceptions) inside their respective packages so that the middle man is only responsible for confirming receipt of packages and then shipping. This will cut down the work involved and insure that the costs of shipping to the intended receiver are not changed by the middle man in any way. It also covers the senders as well as the middle man.

4. After the traders confirm receipt on both ends the middle man must be given specific Middle man feedback to ensure that he is a reliable middle man that all can depend on. In essence a new middle man feedback option should be added to the list of drop down options when you leave feedback under where it says trade.

5. The Mods have the right to kick anyone they want off of the B.O. approved list should an issue arise in a deal, or also for any reason at all.

The middle man's responsibilities are as follows:

1A. Video the packages (both) at the same time showing received and then open the packages verifying that the agreed upon cards are in the package, and no obvious damage (huge creases tears or things like it) have been done.

2A. After verification of the correct cards on video with both parties good to go, the package then is re-packaged and shipped to the intended receiver, and parties receive their cards.

3A. The middle man must be able to send within 2 days guaranteed or they cannot become a middle man. This rule has 1 exception (a verified emergency).

4A. Compensation for the middle man is only at the traders discretion, and should only be cards and or minimal cash (i.e. 5 dollars or less split between both traders) to compensate the middle man for his time and effort. I think that should be pretty fair.

Any ideas to add onto this are great, but that would put a huge set of brakes on scammers, and just plain bad deals (for the most part anyway)

What do you guys think?
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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This seems like a good idea. I would volunteer but I do not meet all of your criteria. I do not have 100 feedback. I just don't open enough to sell or trade. If you want to overlook the feedback on here check my ebay feedback.

How would you cover the shipping? Would the b/s need to have additional paid envelopes included or would they paypal the additional shipping to the middle man?
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This seems like a good idea. I would volunteer but I do not meet all of your criteria. I do not have 100 feedback. I just don't open enough to sell or trade. If you want to overlook the feedback on here check my ebay feedback.

How would you cover the shipping? Would the b/s need to have additional paid envelopes included or would they paypal the additional shipping to the middle man?
To be safe it would require the package already adressed to the person the trade was with, and would require delivery confirmation from both parties to be valid. Thanks for bringing this up.

The beauty of the list is that it should be very select, because you only have so many people like that here including myself. Other than the year restriction (I will be there in a few months) this should help drastically reduce the occurances.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:33 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Also specify that the enclosed package not be sealed. If it is sealed and just passed through there isn't any assurance as to what is in the package.

I can see a lot of people sealing the envelope just by accident.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I realize it would cut down on the problem - but what happens when the one "middle man" decides to scam? We can say it will never happen - but at some point it will. It's just the law of averages. Then 2 people all of a sudden have been scammed at the same time.

You'd almost have to have the middle men be people that the mods know personally - not just via the forums - as there are no guarantees.

If we all went by "feedback" alone then all those 10,000+ eBay sellers that we know are "scammers" in terms of fake patches etc...would be beyond reproach.

Like I said - I agree 100% in theory - but at some point that 1 out of 100 person will scam 2 people at once.

I do agree though the list should be VERY select. Not just people that are around alot.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Also specify that the enclosed package not be sealed. If it is sealed and just passed through there isn't any assurance as to what is in the package.

I can see a lot of people sealing the envelope just by accident.
God I hope not, but I added it anyway. I also added a compensation clause for people who wish to donate to the middle man for his effort.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:45 PM   #7 (permalink)
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What does said middle man get out of the deal?

Also, no matter the reputation of the middle man, why can't he just decide one day to accept a package because he likes the content. Boom.... broken process.

edit: I see asujbl beat me to my second point...
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I realize it would cut down on the problem - but what happens when the one "middle man" decides to scam? We can say it will never happen - but at some point it will. It's just the law of averages. Then 2 people all of a sudden have been scammed at the same time.

You'd almost have to have the middle men be people that the mods know personally - not just via the forums - as there are no guarantees.

If we all went by "feedback" alone then all those 10,000+ eBay sellers that we know are "scammers" in terms of fake patches etc...would be beyond reproach.

Like I said - I agree 100% in theory - but at some point that 1 out of 100 person will scam 2 people at once.

I do agree though the list should be VERY select. Not just people that are around alot.
While I see that it is possible, The way I set it up makes it become very unlikely. Reasons are that the tenure is necessary (1 year) which would kill fly by night scammers as they will not be patient enough to wait for that long most likely. Second the public vote so that people can give input on the persons B/S/T activity, & their PM demeanor (whether he acts properly in public and in PM mode and not a donkey behind the scenes because no one can see)

Third the 100% feedback rule to prevent anyone with even a single neutral or negative from being on the list, and finally the mods must approve that he/she is on daily to confirm transactions and such.

Then blowout gives their disclaimer saying use them at your own risk (as they do in the Group Break section) and we are gravy.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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What does said middle man get out of the deal?

Also, no matter the reputation of the middle man, why can't he just decide one day to accept a package because he likes the content. Boom.... broken process.

edit: I see asujbl beat me to my second point...
I adde a compensation clause, and again you guys are not reading the entire post here. You can't just become a member here and get on the list, and also it has to be video recorded when received and both parties must approve the video. You also have evidence in some type of dispute should one arise.

There are people who tend to look at the world a certain way and find the bad in something. I happen to be opposite. We all know who the honorable people are here.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I realize it would cut down on the problem - but what happens when the one "middle man" decides to scam? We can say it will never happen - but at some point it will. It's just the law of averages. Then 2 people all of a sudden have been scammed at the same time.

You'd almost have to have the middle men be people that the mods know personally - not just via the forums - as there are no guarantees.

If we all went by "feedback" alone then all those 10,000+ eBay sellers that we know are "scammers" in terms of fake patches etc...would be beyond reproach.

Like I said - I agree 100% in theory - but at some point that 1 out of 100 person will scam 2 people at once.

I do agree though the list should be VERY select. Not just people that are around alot.
Unfortunately you will never be able to be 100% no matter what. I have never met iluvfish personally but from my dealings with him over the last 3 1/2 years I would trust him without a doubt. I am sure he has enough on his plate anyway but just throwing another name out there.

A great person would be someone who doesn't collect cards, not like you will find them on the forum. That way they will not have the temptation. I almost exclusively collect non-sports so I guess I am almost there. Not too many of us on here.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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bboi while your aim is genuine here you are being way to strict. I really do hope you find a select few who meet your "criteria" and actually want to take time out of their lives to do something for others while gaining nothing out of it. It's very obvious and easy to tell if a member is trustworthy to this extent. It amazes me that since I haven't been here a full year you are open to the idea that I could be a "fly by night scammer". Anyhow, who made you in charge of all this anyway? Seems like you would want to more be getting input and help from us other members instead of just setting up all the rules yourself.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Even if you assumed that absolutely none of the deals would result in a scam by the middle man, which is completely untrue as is, what happens when there is a small problem, such as a delay? Invariably, the middle man would get his/her share of the blame with the deal as well. It only takes one deal to go bad for the reputation of that middle man to be ruined as well. There really is too much risk involved there.

In theory, it's an interesting concept but it has too many flaws for it to actually be put into practice over the longer term.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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bboi while your aim is genuine here you are being way to strict. I really do hope you find a select few who meet your "criteria" and actually want to take time out of their lives to do something for others while gaining nothing out of it. It's very obvious and easy to tell if a member is trustworthy to this extent. It amazes me that since I haven't been here a full year you are open to the idea that I could be a "fly by night scammer". Anyhow, who made you in charge of all this anyway? Seems like you would want to more be getting input and help from us other members instead of just setting up all the rules yourself.
You are assuming things by saying I am open to the idea that "you" are a fly by night scammer. never said that and never will brother. Assumptions are never good. Strict is what makes it work. Bad ethics are why people get scammed so having a person with good ethics and business practice drastically cuts down the scam percentage. They do get something out of it. They would likely get a card or a few bucks for their trouble. It is not "Obvious" or "easy" as you say to tell if someone is trust worthy or we wouldn't be seeing "I got scammed" every week.

I am also not "in charge" of all of this and this is the "Suggestion" area, and not the "bboi30 is making a rule" area. And at the end of the post (which you likely didn't read because you were too busy assuming already) I asked for suggestions and ideas to improve it.

BTW this is already a sticky so I don't so how you guys think there are "Holes" when a mod already approved of the way it would work and are cool with the idea.

Besides it wouldn't be a "rule", but more a "use it if you want" type of thing. Your post is full of assumptions so please re-read the suggestion and then we can talk. I am always open for ideas as is blowout. Again jsut an "IDEA".

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Even if you assumed that absolutely none of the deals would result in a scam by the middle man, which is completely untrue as is, what happens when there is a small problem, such as a delay? Invariably, the middle man would get his/her share of the blame with the deal as well. It only takes one deal to go bad for the reputation of that middle man to be ruined as well. There really is too much risk involved there.

In theory, it's an interesting concept but it has too many flaws for it to actually be put into practice over the longer term.
Deals are already going bad every day, and yes a delay can happen, but there are deals which also have taken longer than 30 days with cards gone, and or other merchandise so you are taking the same risk with no middle man as you are with one. No difference at all other than two people sending to one person, and not a 1 to 1 trade.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Deals are already going bad every day, and yes a delay can happen, but there are deals which also have taken longer than 30 days with cards gone, and or other merchandise so you are taking the same risk with no middle man as you are with one. No difference at all other than two people sending to one person, and not a 1 to 1 trade.

You still didn't address any of the points I originally brought up.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You still didn't address any of the points I originally brought up.
I belive there was only one question raised and I believe I answered it already.

here is the answer I gave in my original response posted below.

Deals are already going bad every day, and yes a delay can happen, but there are deals which also have taken longer than 30 days with cards gone, and or other merchandise so you are taking the same risk with no middle man as you are with one. No difference at all other than two people sending to one person, and not a 1 to 1 trade.

Did I miss another concern of yours?
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Alright then, so my suggestion is to X the 1 year rule, being that when the members vote that really is all that matters. They have a firm grasp on reality and be able to make a sound decision on their own, and if the vote is like 95% for and 5% against then it would be quite obvious if the person is trustworthy or not.

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It is not "Obvious" or "easy" as you say to tell if someone is trust worthy or we wouldn't be seeing "I got scammed" every week.
This statement literally makes no sense to me. All these people who are getting scammed are not getting scammed by veteran trustworthy members, they are being scammed by newer members. Members who if put to a vote people would vote no.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:07 PM   #17 (permalink)
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This would be my vote right: Proposition NO SCAMMIES, please place your ballot for yes or no in favor of a Trade Manager to weed out the likes of possible scammers!!
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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How on earth does a trade manager prevent scams?

What it comes down to is two newbs sending at the same time to each other, so a trade manager accomplishes nothing.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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How on earth does a trade manager prevent scams?

What it comes down to is two newbs sending at the same time to each other, so a trade manager accomplishes nothing.
Well opinions vary.....seems to work well on a couple other sites! Maybe if someone has less than 10 or 20 feedback they should be made to send first but whatever. I do AGREE with bboi on this manner though.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Virgil, what about when both members have less than 10 or 20?

You agree with bboi on what manner?
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Alright then, so my suggestion is to X the 1 year rule, being that when the members vote that really is all that matters. They have a firm grasp on reality and be able to make a sound decision on their own, and if the vote is like 95% for and 5% against then it would be quite obvious if the person is trustworthy or not.

if you X the one year rule then there is no way to know who it is may be getting on that list. The point of the 1 year rule is so that the person is around long enough for many people to know who they are, how they deal, how they communicate & most importantly how their integrity is. Nix the rule and anyone who can get 100 trades in a month (I just saw someone with that many in one month no joke- Amazing by the way) can be on the list.

What's the big deal about the requirement anyway? You and I both would be eligible in a few months, and who's to stop from using any of us anyway. Anyone could do it now without BO's concent if they wanted.

This thread is meant to make a section for a list of forum approved middle men for safe high end trading.

This statement literally makes no sense to me. All these people who are getting scammed are not getting scammed by veteran trustworthy members, they are being scammed by newer members. Members who if put to a vote people would vote no.

As far as this comment^^^^^. we have seen veteran members with high feedback get accused as well. This is also why the video of both packages being opend and re-packaged on camera is necessary.
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How on earth does a trade manager prevent scams?

What it comes down to is two newbs sending at the same time to each other, so a trade manager accomplishes nothing.
I actually agree with this statement.

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Well opinions vary.....seems to work well on a couple other sites! Maybe if someone has less than 10 or 20 feedback they should be made to send first but whatever. I do AGREE with bboi on this manner though.
The send first rule with newer members is a great rule too that should be put into place whether or not this one actually happens.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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if you X the one year rule then there is no way to know who it is may be getting on that list. The point of the 1 year rule is so that the person is around long enough for many people to know who they are, how they deal, how they communicate & most importantly how their integrity is.
Pretty sure you and I have been around here long enough for many people to know who we are, how we deal, how we communicate & most importantly how our integrity is.
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Nix the rule and anyone who can get 100 trades in a month (I just saw someone with that many in one month no joke- Amazing by the way) can be on the list.
It's as if you are forgetting that there will be a vote. Pretty sure we will see that they have only been around a month and aren't worthy of being a middleman just yet.

I just find it crazy that I am the only guy so far with my hand up volunteering for this but yet you don't think I'm worthy. How many middle-men do you think we need? I really only see a need for one to be honest.
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Pretty sure you and I have been around here long enough for many people to know who we are, how we deal, how we communicate & most importantly how our integrity is.

It's as if you are forgetting that there will be a vote. Pretty sure we will see that they have only been around a month and aren't worthy of being a middleman just yet.

I just find it crazy that I am the only guy so far with my hand up volunteering for this but yet you don't think I'm worthy. How many middle-men do you think we need? I really only see a need for one to be honest.
I don't think and never thought you were UN-worthy at all, and I do not think one person will be enough for a few reasons. Like I said the vote portion would only be good if the person has had lots of interactions with people and time to show his/her true colors. This is why the tenure rule is so important along side the 100+ feedback rule.

By the way I would be open to doing this for anyone if they wanted to, but wanted to establish a precedent for all to use (in a non byist way) first.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Virgil, what about when both members have less than 10 or 20?

You agree with bboi on what manner?
I agree with his idea, even if it affects me I could care less either cause I don't trade too much nor do I have many high-end cards outside of PC cards.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:33 AM   #25 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=bboi30;1460849]I actually agree with this statement.



The send first rule with newer members is a great rule too that should be put into place whether or not this one actually happens.[/QUOTE]

I am glad that some people are taking the initative to at least try. These guys are trying to make the site safer for everyone so I appreciate everyones efforts. This obviously cannot be a rule that people have to use a middle man but the option is there for them if they dont feel comftable doing a high dollar deal with a newer member. Obviously if I was doing a deal with man in the mirror or cardcollector,ronlabo,ND3, coltsfan23 this service would not be used as I trust these guys and many others on here. It should be used as a "just in case" kind of thing. If the other party involved in the deal wont do it because of the few extra dollars involved then that should be a red light about that person right there. They want to do a 100+deal but wont spend the extra 3 bucks to use a middle man. That would raise my suspicion right there. As far as the send first under 20 rule that does need to get done on here. Nothing against new people, we were all new once. I had to earn my trust on here and rightfully so. Everyone should have to. It is very frustrating when a new person comes on here with 0 feedback trying to sell 100 dolar and up cards and using this phrase as logic "you are protected by paypal". Yes we are but it wont stop you from having our money for the time being, having to file a case, then wait 45 days and hope we get our money back. Thats nonsense. People with 0 feedback have no grounds questioning someone with 100+ feedback all positive. I wont deal with new people unless they send first. I dont care if its a rule on here or not. Its my rule.I went to school too long and work too hard to take chances that a complete stranger with 0 feedback on the internet is gonna be 100% trustworthy. Something does need to happen on this site as there are some great, awesome members here there are also people that just dont have a clue. Slow shipping, horrible packaging, taking forever to pay. Things like that. I will give you a perfect example and then quit my rant. I had a sale thread up awhile back and someone responded "I will take it" to a card I was selling. This was a sunday afternoon. I send my paypal addy to them. The next day, monday I get a pm saying "thanks for the deal, I will send payment over on friday". What the hell is that? The worse part about it is if you say deals off, you get a neg. Thats nonsense.
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